Today on the Oathbringer Reread we’ve got a Scholarly Sit-down with Jasnah Kholin and a few of her friends (via span-reed, of course). Suspicions start blooming over a certain Kholin boy’s spren, Amaram takes a well-deserved verbal beat-down, and Renarin makes a grand discovery that could change everything.
Aubree and I have a lot to cover today, and Alice won’t be joining us due to family obligations, so strap in and prepare your spanreeds to make those comments on the bottom!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There’s also a tiny bit of Cosmere talk in the epigraph part of The Singing Storm, so tread carefully if you haven’t finished the original Mistborn trilogy. As always, if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Jasnah
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.9.1, one day after Dalinar flew to the warcamps.
Jasnah is spending some time with her fellow scholars in Urithiru. She makes a “conference call” via spanreed to some old friends, and discusses the fact that Nalan has been sighted in Azir. They also talk about Lift, whether or not Dalinar is crazy (he’s not), and Jasnah begins to have some suspicions about Renarin’s spren. Unfortunately for Jasnah, her least favorite person (Amaram) shows up, wanting to talk to her about bridging the growing gap between their families. Jasnah’s having none of it, and insults him so thoroughly that he leaves in a huff. Shallan brings up that she plans to leave with Elhokar to infiltrate Alethkar, which Jasnah’s none to pleased about, then Renarin makes the discovery of a lifetime—a hidden cache of gems, holding vibrational codes containing knowledge thought long lost.
The Singing Storm
Title: Such a Twisted Cut
L: I’m inclined to think that this is talking about the cuts Jasnah inflicts on Amaram’s ego, and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.
Heralds
Palah’s in all four places on this chapter, and it’s pretty clear why, I think. She’s the Scholar, and if there’s one thing Jasnah is in full-gear on in this chapter, it’s scholastics. And mad burns, but we’ll get to that.
Icon
Shadesmar
Epigraph
Friend,
Your letter is most intriguing, even revelatory.
L: Oh no, Alice isn’t here so I guess I’ve got to take a stab at this section this week. ::sweats:: Well, this is clearly the beginning of a new correspondance. In the next parts the writer says they’re a deity and holding two opposing powers, so… Sazed/Harmony, writing to Hoid, presumably. The question is, what in the world was Hoid writing to Harmony that would surprise him so much? Something about Odium’s return, perhaps? We’ll dig into more of this letter in later chapters, of course, but I’m so curious to know what Hoid’s up to. (As always with him.)
AP: I was really excited by this, because the Cosmere timeline is a bit wibbly-wobbly to me.
L: (You said it so I have to post the gif, I’m contractually obligated.)
AP: It’s really cool to see Sazed pop up again. I’m eager to get more and more connections as the series unfolds.
Stories & Songs
He gathered them together at a grand feast, promising the delights of distant Aimia.
L: I’m desperately curious to know what these delights were.
AP: I’m going to need our fellow beta, Deana Whitney, to take a stab at this in one of her Cosmere food articles!
L: Wow, for some reason my head didn’t even go to food, I was thinking music or entertainment or something. But you’re right, looking at it again it probably does refer to food.
The text sounded almost delighted when she’d explained how he’d died by choking on the food at that very feast, alone with nobody to help him.
L: I really like this story/proverb. On the one hand, this guy survived so many assassination attempts that it’s almost understandable that he did what he did—but on the other, the irony is pretty delicious: the very fact that he had no one he could trust led him to his demise.
AP: I thought it was a great story too. But on a second look, it makes me wonder why exactly so many members of his own family hated him enough to try to kill him. Based on his overreaction, it seems like they may have had good reason.
L: Yeah, there’s definitely some underlying subtext, here. If he was a perfect benevolent ruler, everyone wouldn’t be trying to do away with him, now would they?
Often the greatest threat to a ruling family was its own members. Why were so many of the old royal lines such knots of murder, greed, and infighting? And what make the few exceptions different?
AP: Related to the above, this makes me really nervous for possible foreshadowing what with Jasnah being the new Queen at the end of the book. Are the families prone to paranoia or other forms of mental illness? We know that potential Knights Radiant are particularly paranoid when cryptics start hovering around. If the royal lines were full of unstable people, then no wonder they fell to internal threats. And with the Kholin dynasty already overrepresented in the newest iteration of the Knights Radiant, is it possible that we see some of this pop up again in future books?
L: Well, at least if people within the family do start gunning for her, she’s well equipped to take care of herself. Not only is she a Knight Radiant, she’s had years and years of experience in hiring assassins to “take care” issues like this.
AP: Oh, definitely. She’s got more experience with her powers than anyone else at this point. I fear for whoever tries to take on Jasnah Kholin.
L: Me, when that happens. Unless it’s Kaladin, in which case, this.
In any case, something’s wrong with the man I think is Nalan, Jasnah. I don’t think the Heralds will be a resource to us.
I will provide you with sketches of the Heralds, Jasnah said. I have drawings of their true faces, provided by an unexpected source.
L: Hoid, perhaps? We know Jasnah ran into him. I’m interested in this from another angle though. Do you think that the Heralds retained the same physical form in each return? I always sort of imagined it like reincarnation, sort of like in Wheel of Time. But this indicates that they look the same each time they’re brought back. It also implies to me that they return each time as adults, rather than being reborn and having to take the time to grow to adulthood. This makes sense, as they’d need to be adults to lead the people in each Desolation—but does it also mean that their bodies themselves are immortal, as opposed to just their souls?
AP: I wonder if it has to do with their cognitive identity—how they see themselves. So perhaps they experienced small changes over time related to their own self image, maybe they are taller than they were when they were human, for example. But by & large, your self image is pretty set.
L: Interesting. So their self-image could somehow alter their physical appearance? Like… “wouldn’t you rather be fire?” only in this case, “wouldn’t I rather be blond?” Man. I wish changing hair color in the real world were so easy…
AP: Not exactly a “would you rather” but like how Kaladin still has his slave brand that doesn’t heal, because it’s part of his self identity. Versus The Lopen who regrew his arm because only having one arm isn’t something he has internalized. His “self” has two arms, so the stormlight “healed” him to match his self identity.
L: That makes sense. So rather… “I should be blond, hence… I am.” I think therefore I am? ::laughs::
AP: Decartes would so be there for Roshar!
L: I do still wonder about their physical bodies though. Are they immortal and their bodies were carted off into the other realm with them to be tortured each Desolation?
AP: I don’t think so. My guess is that they get new meat suits for each reincarnation. They just match their cognitive identity.
A ruby, long as Jasnah’s thumb, cut into a strange shape with holes drilled in it.
…
The library had decayed, but the ancient Radiants had obviously anticipated that.
They’d found another way to pass on their knowledge.
L: Fun fact, the little snippets of information that show up in the epigraphs from here on out weren’t in the beta draft, so I have no idea what’s in them. I look forward to finding out and speculating…
AP: I was so confused when the book came out and people were talking about what was in these. I ended up skimming through all the epigraphs in a single sitting. It’s a really clever way to get world lore to the reader. Though in the beta we were all guessing about what these stones would do, and were totally off base. I thought they would be part of what powered Urithiru and made it “be a city.”
Jasnah was most interested in the Thaylen parshmen who had stolen the ships that survived the storm. Their exodus—combined with Kaladin Stormblessed’s interactions with the parshmen in Alethkar—was painting a new picture of what and who the Voidbringers were.
AP: I find all these tidbits fascinating. The awakened parshmen are definitely going to have a huge role to play apart from the Fused. I’m all in on them reclaiming their culture and identity.
L: Yeah, as much as I hate the Fused, I am all for the poor parshmen. Poor people have been downtrodden and enslaved for so long that they don’t even have their own cultural identity anymore. It’s heartbreaking.
AP: My completely unfounded suspicion is that it will take the Listeners/Singers/whatever new identity the awakened parshmen take on AND the humans working together to take down Odium.
L: I still think that Odium’s a red herring and the Real Big Bad is going to show up after he goes down after book 5, but I’m with you on the “Listeners/Humans team up” thing for sure.
Relationships & Romances
“We were close once.”
“My father wished us to be close. Do not mistake his fancies for fact.”
…
“Why, Jasnah? Why have you always denied me?”
“Other than the fact that you are a detestable buffoon who achieves only the lowest level of mediocrity, as it is the best your limited mind can imagine? I can’t possibly think of a reason.”
L: Dude, Amaram. Take the hint. The lady’s not into you.
AP: No means no. It makes me wonder what he was like when they were younger. I got seriously creepy vibes when he grabbed her arm.
L: Saaaaame.
“Brightness!” Shallan said as Jasnah sat. “That was incredible!”
“I let myself be pushed into abundant emotion.”
“You were so clever!”
L: I love how Shallan looks up to Jasnah so much, even despite the frustration she feels over being treated like a child sometimes. (Also, it might be worthwhile to mention that while Shallan tries—too hard, often times—to be clever, Jasnah does it effortlessly.)
AP: I like how this shows the difference in maturity between them so clearly. Shallan is just over the moon about the epic burns, and Jasnah is self-critical about the tactics she chose to take and knows that there will be consequences.
Bruised & Broken
You can’t spend forever floating between worlds, Cousin, she thought. Eventually you’ll need to decide where you want to belong. Life was so much harder, but potentially so much more fulfilling, when you found the courage to choose.
L: There’s a lot of interesting thoughts to unpack in this passage. For starters, I don’t think Jasnah is right here. She’s thinking in such binary of terms—black or white, fact or fiction. It’s a very scientific approach, but I don’t think it necessarily applies to people and emotions. It’s entirely feasible to live in the grey area, to be both a scholar and a soldier. Perhaps in this case, the courage Renarin needs is to take a stand and straddle that line, to choose what’s right for him and not to align with what society and culture expect of him.
AP: I think that the orders of the Knights Radiant can live on the edges much more easily than the son of a highprince. I expect the old rules to be less and less applicable, and I definitely welcome the change. However, this does show that Jasnah, for all her very public heresy, does have to work within the system to a strong degree to achieve her goals. She is still very much an Alethi lighteyes.
L: I wonder how much that’s going to change now that she’s queen, though!
AP: Depends on how effective she wants to be, I would guess! We saw with Elhokar how the king can be just a figurehead if they don’t have the support of the highprinces. I think Jasnah is much more politically savvy than her brother though.
—the boy could be a powerful addition to our ranks. He shows interest in numerology, and asked me if we can truly predict events with it.
Jasnah made a note to speak to Renarin; she would not have him wasting his time with a bunch of fools who thought they could foretell the future based on the curls of smoke from a snuffed candle.
L: Jasnah, really? Come on, now. You’ve been judged for your belief (or lack thereof) your entire life, maybe don’t judge others based on those same metrics.
Buy the Book
The Ruin of Kings
In all seriousness, I get where she’s coming from. Athiests often have a dissatisfied take on any sort of religion, having been judged based on their beliefs for their entire lives. It makes sense that any sort of scientifically unprovable belief system would chafe against her. But she’s continually trying to make others what she believes they could be, rather than allowing them to figure that out for themselves. It’s the only thing that really bugs me about her.
AP: I think that’s a valid criticism! I wonder how much of the predicting the future is based on the abilities of one or more orders of KR, and how much has been corrupted like seemingly everything else in Vorinism?
Squires & Sidekicks
Are you at Urithiru? Jochi wrote. When can I visit?
As soon as you’re willing to let everyone know you aren’t female, Jasnah wrote back. Jochi—known to the world as a dynamic woman of distinctive philosophy—was a pen name for a potbellied man in his sixties who ran a pastry shop in Thaylen City.
L: I absolutely adore this guy already.
AP: He’s definitely the side character I’m most looking forward to “meeting”.
Heralds alive and trying to kill people, Jochi wrote. And here I thought my news about a sighting of Axies the Collector was interesting.
L: Just noting this casual little drop of information on Axies.
Places & Peoples
—tests confirm something is different here. Temperatures are distinctly lower on other nearby peaks of the same elevation—
L: Well that’s interesting. Something to do with the dormant technology of Urithiru, perhaps?
AP: I really want to know how Urithiru works! This is the bit of lore I was most interested in finding out, and we don’t get an answer by the end of the book. Which makes me think there is a Big Reveal coming in book 4.
Navani talked of ways to improve the experience—of spanreeds that could be adjusted to connect to different people.
AP: Yaassss Navani! I am totally in on Navani’s magi-tech.
L: You just had to say that word, now all I can think of is Final Fantasy.
“And yet, my first insult was not to attack him, but the moral reputation of his female relative. Clever? Or simply the use of an obvious bludgeon?”
L: I’m putting this one here because of the subtext of social commentary. So often femininity is used as an insult (“You throw like a girl”), and I really love seeing Jasnah admitting that her first instinct was to adhere to this rather than insulting him based on his own lack of virtues or honor. Alethi society may have a long way to go, but I’m glad for people like Jasnah who, like many in our own world today, are taking a good hard look at the ingrained injustices and prejudices of the world and taking active steps to reject them.
AP: As I alluded to earlier, I think this is huge. It takes a lot of self reflection to acknowledge an error, and work to do better.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Jasnah,” he said when he drew close. “I was told I could find you here.”
“Remind me to find whoever told you,” Jasnah said, “and have them hanged.”
L: Storms bless you, Jasnah Kholin.
“Everyone can see that he has started to share your religious beliefs.”
“Which would be incredible, since I don’t have religious beliefs.”
L: Jasnah 2, Amaram 0.
“Yes, from what I understand, she spent the seven months she was with child entertaining each and every military man she could find, in the hopes that something of them would stick to you.”
L: Yup.
Jasnah smiled, holding her freehand toward him, letting Stormlight curl and rise from it. “Oh, please do, Meridas. Give me an excuse. I dare you.”
L: This Jasnah Kholin appreciation comment is brought to you by the letter B, for “badass.”
AP: Yes! I wanted to see her summon her shardblade! And, AND, after Amaram threatens her with the blade he STOLE FROM KALADIN!
L: Shit I had forgotten that and it makes me want to kill him even more.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Concentrationspren rippled in the air like waves overheard—a rarity in Alethkar, but common here—and logicspren darted through them, like tiny stormclouds.
L: I wonder if the concentrationspren being more prevalent here is simply due to the fact that it’s easier to concentrate in such a secluded place, or if there’s more going on in regards to location.
AP: I read it as a commentary on having so many scholars in one place, which was rare in Alethkar.
Ethid, she wrote, weren’t you going to try to construct drawings of the spren tied to each order of Radiant?
I’ve gotten quite far, actually, she wrote back. I saw the Edgedancer spren personally, after demanding a glimpse.
What of the Truthwatchers? Jasnah wrote.
Oh! I found a reference to those, Jochi wrote. The spren reportedly looked like light on a surface after it reflects through something crystalline.
L: Here we go, starting to really question Renarin’s spren. I’m curious about what exactly piqued Jasnah’s interest here, though. What he said (“—it’s coming from in here. Somewhere in this room—”) doesn’t seem to raise any red flags for me…
AP: I had the same question. We don’t know a lot about the Truthwatchers, so my guess was that it’s something in the lore surrounding them and Renarin’s behavior with Glys did not fit the expected pattern. Is he demonstrating an ability that he shouldn’t have based on his declared order? We know that Shallan is pretending to be an Elsecaller for her own benefit, which Jasnah knows is a lie. Perhaps she is more suspicious of her own family and internal threats than she’s willing to acknowledge.
Analyzing Artwork
AP: I love the calligraphy discussion here! Seeing the glyphs written out for the first ideal of the Knights Radiant is a cool easter egg. And then the reference to the phoneme set on the next page….which we don’t get!!
L: I agree, but… who the heck is writing this?
I prefer bloodstains to inkstains any day, so next time send me somewhere I’m more likely to die from wounds than from handcramps.
Assuming that it’s a worldhopper, but… are there any other clues?
AP: Someone posing as an ardent, I surmise. Or an actual ardent undercover in another devotary? The “Purity’s Eye” swear sticks out at me. It sounds like the writer is worried about coded messages being sent via glyphs, and that they do not typically spend a lot of time writing.
L: The way they talk about the Alethi, it’s got to be either a worldhopper or someone from a different culture on Roshar.
AP: Oh, totally a worldhopper. But we’ve seen Hoid be deep undercover before. Pretending to be an ardent wouldn’t be anything too difficult.
L: I also like how the glyphs so closely mirror the evolution of the written languages for Chinese and Japanese. The way they change and simplify over time, the way we have that section on the bottom right that’s just letters transcribed to simple glyphs is very much like Japanese hiragana and katakana! This is probably intentional—I know that Sanderson spent some time in Asia, he probably picked up on some cool stuff like this while he was over there.
AP: That’s a good catch! I study western calligraphy, and it makes me think of the way that scripts changed over time, first becoming highly stylized and decorative, then moving back toward functional before becoming very standardized with printing.
Quality Quotations
Turns out the end of the world had to actually arrive before people would take it seriously.
L: ::cough climate change cough::
AP: Such a good quote.
If Alethkar was going to survive the Desolation, they’d need committed leadership. A stable throne.
L: That’s some quality foreshadowing, there.
AP: Time will tell! I love my girl Jasnah, but I don’t know how stable the throne will be during a Desolation!
Ethid did not think highly of men who earned their reputations through conquest, despite having made the study of such men a cornerstone of her research.
L: Or perhaps because of it.
Jasnah Kholin? Lost at sea? Likelier we’d find the Stormfather dead.
AP: Weellll…that seems ominously like foreshadowing….
AP: Next week we join back up with the guy everyone loves to hate, Moash! Get hype!
L: Mm hmm.
AP: We also learn a lot more about the Fused. And someone we thought was gone re-emerges…
Aubree is eventually going to have to write an actual bio. But as she is currently on assignment hunting inspirationspren it will have to wait for another time. She heard that Axies found one in Aimia and she is now giving stray cremlings the side-eye.
Lyndsey is heading to Salem, MA for Halloween this year. If you’re there, keep an eye out for Yuuri Katsuki and Victor Nikiforov and if you see them, come say hi! If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Had time to only briefly skim the article right now, have to read more thoroughly after work, but regarding the artwork.
Does this mean that Kaladin is literally “Born unto eternity”?
About who is writing it, I believe it is (whiting out to be sure not to spoil something again) //Nazh who is reporting to Krissalla again//.
In regards to the Heralds discussion, I recently read a very interesting WoB (Word of Brandon) where he talked about Heralds having bodies “created” for them.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Can a Returned be made from stormlight?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
How would you count the Heralds?
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
I haven’t read much, so I don’t really know what you’re talking about.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
In the Stormlight books, there is a set of people who are constantly reborn, into full sized grown bodies that are being created for them. Would you count that as being Returned?
Or do you count Returned…What’s your definition, right? You can create something that is Returned-like. But your definition of what is Returned and what is not, is going to be involved in that.
That’s Nazh’s handwriting. :)
The “friend” presumably Khriss.
@OP
I’m pretty positive the “twisted cut” is in reference to the gem they find that they describe as having “such a twisted cut”…
Having scenes like this with Jasnah made me very pleased. I especially like the way she Monday morning quarterbacks her own exchange with Amaram. It’s better relatable.
I’m not convinced that it’s Nazh writing the glyphs. He doesn’t seem like the kind of person to complain about writing. The whole “I prefer bloodstains to inkstains” line. We’ve seen Nazh write alot, but never heard him complain about it. Writing/scholarly research almost seems to be his prime directive. I could see the writer being Galladon. He starts the letter “my friend”. Galladon always called Raoden “Sule” which translates to “my friend”. We know that Galladon is on Roshar. He was the person that Ishikk nicknamed Grump in the Purelake intermission of Way of Kings. Since Elantris magic is all about writing glyphs, I could see Raoden asking Galladon to collect information about glyphs found on other shard worlds.
Re: the calligrapher, I assumed it was Nazh, our favorite world-hopping ardent-impersonating archivist.
Tor mobile won’t show me the comments, as semi-usual, so I apologize if someone already said this!
I agree with @6 toothlessjoe. I don’t see Nazh writing the bit about prefering bloodstains to inkstains.
Re: “I’m curious about what exactly piqued Jasnah’s interest here”
I don’t think it’s anything in this scene that starts her questioning. I think she’s been questioning for a bit – since she learned that Renarin was responsible for the Great Everstorm Countdown of 1173 (Trademark pending). That, combined with him failing at lightweaving (the other surge of the order he claims) indicates something is amiss.
@9 When exactly did we learn that Renarin was responsible for the countdown? I first found it out when reading a discussion on this site some time after finishing WOR. It may be obvious and I just completely missed it in novel (speedreading sometimes is a problem).
Great summary ladies, and great burns by Jasnah! I really liked her self-examination, and the acknowledgement that gendered insults are both wrong and automatic responses.
I agree with @6 and @8. I don’t think it is Nazh, though I have no other suggestions.
“If he was a perfect benevolent ruler, everyone wouldn’t be trying to do away with him, now would they?”
Some of the greatest historical assassinations have targeted people for essentially that reason. The assassins usually had another pretext of one kind or another, but their true motives were almost always corrupt. Often rulers who oppose favoritism, reduce corruption, enforce laws equally, and husband public moneys tend to be the same rulers who get targeted by assassins or rebellion.
“Do you think that the Heralds retained the same physical form in each return? I always sort of imagined it like reincarnation, sort of like in Wheel of Time. But this indicates that they look the same each time they’re brought back. It also implies to me that they return each time as adults, rather than being reborn and having to take the time to grow to adulthood. This makes sense, as they’d need to be adults to lead the people in each Desolation—but does it also mean that their bodies themselves are immortal, as opposed to just their souls?”
Don’t the Fused take on the appearance of the possessor once they’ve seized control of a body? I could easily be mis-remembering, but that was my impression.
“My guess is that they get new meat suits for each reincarnation. They just match their cognitive identity.”
I assume it uses a process akin to soulcasting, but without the need for gems since the kind and amount of power involved is likely very different.
I really enjoyed the concept of the conference call. I like how Brandon takes technology that works for a world that is the equivalent of the High Renaissance Period in RL but uses a 21st twist (conference calls and texting – the conversation Adolin and Shallan have via spanreed in WoR). I also like the give and take between the Jasnah and the other two scholars. The first portion of the chapter was essentially an info dump. But the give and take made it an easy read that sort of hid the fact that it was an info dump.
I wonder if Renarin’s discovery of the gems will lead to any knowledge that will help to fully activate Urithiru. Based on the selected epigraphs of the records in the gems we get in a later section, there is not really any knowledge on that topic. Nevertheless, the epigraphs presented were only a fraction of the gems. I wonder how long it will take the scholars to review all of the gems.
Can those gems be used to contain Stormlight? Or have they been permanently altered when the messages were encoded in the gems?
Lyndsey: I disagree. I do not think that Shallan always tries too hard to be clever. It is when she tries too hard that she is not witty. When she lets it come natural, then she is very witty.
Lyndsey and Aubree: I disagree about your opinions about Jasnah’s comment about better off belonging. I do not think Jasnah is limiting oneself to any pre-established group (in Alethi society, soldier or scholar). It can be any world one chooses to belong. I take her statement as when one finds a place that you feel as you belong (even if it is a new role/place), one will be more fulfilled. This dovetails with Jashnah’s philosophy in her book (the one Shallan read in a flashback scene). It does not matter whether a woman is a mother, scholar, both or anything else. It should be the woman’s place to decide what she wants to be rather than society’s expectation. I agree with Jasnah. Once you find something you enjoy (be it work or socially), then you become more fulfilled and will be much happier in your “world;” whatever that world is.
Re the picture. I assumed the author was Nazh and he was sending the report back to Khriss.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Thanks Lyn and Aubree,
Glad I have the opportunity to post right when the reread hits a Jasnah chapter! Some thoughts:
Title: It’s regarding the gemstone that Renarin finds: “Why would anyone spoil a gem with such a twisted cut, and why hide it?”
Heralds: I like the Scholar observation, and maybe also because Renarin (Truthwatcher) was pretty important in this chapter as well?
Epigraph: Maybe Sazed was surprised because he received a letter from a cosmere aware character that he was unaware of to this point? Later parts of the letter have Sazed question how Hoid can hide from him and how Hoid knows so much about Adonalsium.
Jasnah: Continues to be impressive. Yes she clowns Amaram, but she also remarks to Shallan that the way she did it wasn’t the most honorable (how she didn’t just dis Amaram, but his female relative and how that wasn’t all that clever). Also, we get to see her interaction with her Veristitalian “sisters” and her deference to her mother when it comes to anything that’s potentially a fabrial. Not a big fan of the stormwardens, though…
Amaram: Definitely has some creepy vibe going on. And a major sense of entitlement, as well. Makes you wonder if Gavilar and Amaram had some kind of arrangement or agreement regarding Amaram and Jasnah (without informing Jasnah about it, of course). The more we find out about Gavilar, the more likely I suspect he could have done something like that.
Renarin: I jump between liking him a lot and just thinking he’s okay, but I totally feel for him here (and in later parts of Oathbringer). He just made a major discovery, and yet he still doesn’t receive a lot of recognition or praise. I hope by the time book 4 comes, he is respected a lot more.
Magitech: Btw Lyn, I also align Stormlight Archive and Final Fantasy fairly often, as well. In fact, I’ve also had a loony theory for some time that Odium is likely just a mini-Boss for the SA, and that the Final Boss will likely be someone else (Autonomy? Cultivation? Maybe even Hoid?)
@@.-@ – Ah, great minds and all that. Clearly, I agree about the origin of the Chapter Title…
@6 – Re: Galladon, nice theory. I admit, I just thought it was obviously Nazh, but now I’m leaning more your way…
When I first read this chapter, my first thoughts went to Jasnah’s worries over how dynasties often collapse from within. I interpreted this passage as foreshadowing for strained relationships within the Kholin family though, at the time, I did think the truth about who murdered Sadeas might be the element which the family can’t deal with properly. Turns out it was referring to Renarin having a corrupted spren, an open box which hasn’t even begin to be explored.
I also noted how Jasnah’s fear for her family’s dynasty seems to echos her father’s former worries over its kingdom abilities to remain intact after his death.
On Amaram: Well, perhaps I ended up being too heavily influenced by other readers strong argumentation in favor of a conflicted, but not downright evil Amaram, but I did feel Jasnah’s rebuff was undeserved here. Dalinar has been insisting on the need to be united. Amaram wants to be part of this unity, makes the first and presents an ouverture towards developing a good partnership with the Kholins. Unfortunately, no one within the Kholin household is willing to give him the benefit of doubt just as no one is willing to clean in slate in prevision for the war to come. I love how Dalinar later reflects on how hypocritical this has been of him to treat Amaram as he did… because yeah, given what he did, given the clean slate he was offered without qualms, it definitely was hypocritical.
On Renarin’s future career: I do not think it is up to Jasnah to decide what is a good path for Renarin to follow. All his life he dwindled into uncertainty, wanting to be a soldier to gain his father’s approval while internally knowing his strengths lay elsewhere. Now, he is finally getting out there and seeking where he may belong best, I say leave the boy alone to figure it out for himself. I like the fact Renarin is finally trying, so I wish to see him keep on trying. I also noted how fighting the Thunderclast gave him a stronger confidence boost and feeling of general satisfaction which far surpasses what he feels when he makes his discovery within this chapter.
Thus, I do not see why Renarin can’t be a scholar, but also a soldier to be used where needed during battles. As a Radiant, if he is willing to fight, he is now too important to be left behind.
I’ll conclude with this quote from the above text:
But she’s continually trying to make others what she believes they could be, rather than allowing them to figure that out for themselves. It’s the only thing that really bugs me about her.
Yeah. Not unlike Dalinar, Jasnah thinks she knows what is best for others thought she, at least, isn’t using what she wants as a benchmark to evaluate a person’s worth.
Still this makes me wonder what Jasnah will make of Wikim…
RE: Jasnah and Renarin
I think people are ignoring something significant in the discussion, the fact that Renarin CAN see/predict the future. It makes sense to me that he would, therefore, seek out others who claim the same ability in order to test/confirm his visions. This is a case where Jasnah is working from a faulty assumption, namely that all forms of prediction are inherently false.
@14 To reference The Godfather, Jasnah understands “just business”. For some reason, Amaram is personal. We do see a reference to their relationship in Jasnah’s POV in the prologue of book 2. I’m sure Amaram is going to be the Big Turning Point for Jasnah, like the Shardblade Incident was for Kaladin, and the Rift was for Dalinar.
If I’m right, at least 2 orders of KR were basically refounded as a direct result of Amaram’s actions.
@14 I wonder if Dalinar’s reflection on “how hypocritical this has been of him to treat Amaram as he did” combined with his realization near the end of the book regarding “the next step being the most important” might not be the starting point for his relationship with Sveth.
Confirmed later in the story. Ash namechecks Cephandrius, another nickname of “Hoid” (also not his real name).
@10
I feel like there is something in the wrap up of WoR that reveals it was him. If not, later in this book Jasnah reflects that shortly upon her arrival at Urithiru she learned that Renarin had been responsible for it. So she knows by this point at least.
@10
We learn that it’s Renarin who was writing the predictive numbers at the end of WoK.
@15 RE: Jasnah and Renarin.
Renarin was terrified and hiding, because prediction is anathema in his culture and only reveals himself once we learn there are other proto Knights. I think that’s why Jasnah’s suspicious. As we find out later, there is something up with his spren, so it’s not wasted research.
“Yes! I wanted to see her summon her shardblade!”
Was it her shardblade, or was she going to soulcast him like she did the muggers?
@10, 19: It’s this passage from WoR that strongly implies Renarin has been doing it all along:
@19, 20 thanks!
@21 Thank you!
Yep, I think I just missed the significance of the numbers when I read that passage.
So first my own thoughts, and then I will dive into the comments
Now first and foremost, all know how awesome I think Jasnah is. So I know 99 percent of what I write is colored by it, but here are my thoughts all the same.
I find Jasnah being self reflective regarding royal dynasties as a show of her love for her family. She does not want to see them fall into the same pitfalls as the past. She wants to protect and preserve them.
Heralds are reborn into full grown bodies as per WoB. I posted it awhile back in a prior thread because it disputed my theory about the heralds possessing bodies like the fused do. I figured it would make quite a few people happy who were ill at ease with a theory that painted the heralds negatively.
This scene where Jasnah thinks upon the Thaylen parshmen shows she is researching and willing to learn. She is not the type to lock into one way of thinking. Provide her with evidence, and she will work with you.
I ahve said it before, and I will say it again, I love how self reflective Jasnah is. From the outside it looks to everyone like she is “perfect” and a hard ass, yet we see that inside jasnah is continually working on herself. Bettering herself. Always learning. Always growing. Something to admire.
I do not think Jasnah is saying Renarin has to conform to a certain group. As we see with the treatis written by Jasnah that Shallan read back in Way of Kings, Jasnah is all about breaking norms, and being comfortable with yourself. I feel what she is saying to herself here is Renarin needs to take a stand for what works for him. Keeping himself on the outskirts of multipke groups may feel to him as a way to keep himself safe, but by not accepting himself, he is causing himself more harm than good. That is why I feel she is telling him he cannot float forever. At some point he has to choose for himself.
I like how Jasnah plays mother hen to Renarin. She literally reads the lips of the stormwardens who want to use Renarin for their own purposes. Renarin is just starting to find his own space. Jasnah wants to make sure he can do so safely, without people manipulating him like they did to Elhokar.
Sorry but I have to most definitely disagree here. As we have seen with Jasnah and Shallan when speaking to Taravangian, Jasnah does not make others believe what she believes. She believes as she wishes. Where the conflict comes up is people continually trying to convert her, or challenge her beliefs. To which she then defends herself. Stating why she beleives the way she does, does not mean she is trying to convert others. Ironically enough, that is frequently what they continually try to do to her.
I love how we see how accepting Jasnah is of people from various backgrounds and beliefs. She does not judge her colleague for being a man, and yet pursuing a scholarly life (much like what may happen with Renarin).To Jasnah, it does not matter what you believe, nor how you conduct your life, so long as you do not force or limit others.
This opening from Amaram shows again how quick to judge everyone is of Jasnah. Dalinar believes the Almight is dead. Of course it must be the horrible heretic Jasnah’s doing! I would also like to point out this is the second time that Amaram goes for his blade to threaten someone first. First time was when Dalinar confronted Amaram about his lies regarding Kaladin. Amaram reached for his blade, but Dalinar got to his first. Now this. That does not speak much of noble character how quick Amaram is to reach for a blade to attack when someone confronts him on his sins. This shows that Jasnah knows there is something deeper, something wrong with Amaram. Just as it was hinted when Sadeas said how he knew what Amaram really is, just as we saw with Kaladin. We see clearly here with Jasnah that what Amaram did to Kaladin is not the first time he has done something like that, and it won’t be the last.
The source of the Herald’s faces are the visions. They wanted to show them to Shallan so she can draw the Heralds.
The looks of the Heralds might be like the Returned who each look the way they think a god/goddess should look.
The Horneater Peaks also seem to be warmer than they should be like Urithiru. Did the Radiants copy what Cultivation did there?
is Purity another Shard? If it is that could give a hint where the writer comes from.
The evolution of glyphs is obviously inspired by the different styles of Chinese characters. Japanese hiragana are derived from grass script/running script.
@1 Celebrinnen
I confirm all you said. Kaladin’s name, and who drew up the Glyphs. Can post the relevant WoB, and links if needed.
@2 Austin
Ah there is the WoB I was referring to. Thanks!
@5 soursavior
Whole heartily agree!
@6 toothlessjoe
here is the WoB confirming it is in fact Nazh
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/259-oathbringer-leeds-signing/#e8744
@9 whitespine
I agree on all points. Also I will add she loves Renarin dearly, so she is keeping an eye on him to keep him safe. Her keeping a close eye would result in her seeing all sorts of discrepancies.
@10 ladyrian,
When Shallan is trying to open the Oathgate, Renarin grabs a piece of rock and writes the countdown in front of her on the wall, confirming it was him.
@11 Porphyrogenitus
As mentioned by Austin, the WoB show that the bodies are formed and grown to adult for the heralds to them take control of.
@12 AndrewHB
I agree, love the idea of magitech and can’t wait to get more!
I agree, the gemstone archive could lead to many deep insights
Navani and Jasnah comment on how the gemstones because of how they are cut barely hold any stormlight. They then realize the cut was to make the noise to record. So they are poor containers for stormlight.
That is awesome that we feel the same way about Jasnah and Renarin! :)
@13 Kimaniak
Agree on all points!
@15 RogerPavelle
True, but Jasnah does not know for sure Renarin can see the future, nor that Renarin is unique. All she knows at this point is that something is unusual with her cousin and it causes her concern. Yes she made a faulty assumption, but it is a correct assumption based on the information she had at the time. One she quickly rectifies.
@16 KefkaPalazzo
That is an interesting way to see it. In a way Amaram did accomplish his goals then, just not as he thought he would lol.
@17 John
Interesting, and I agree.
@21 Porphyrogenitus
I too assumed she was going to soulcast Amaram. Perhaps into oil, like the slimeball he is lol.
@26 She was definitely gonna soulcast him. That was stormlight, not the beginnings of a blade.
This is one of my favorite chapters, I really love Jasnah. Can’t wait to see how she does as Queen. And how the other highprinces take it, since it’s such a male-dominated society in that way. The way she puts Amaram down made me react just like Shallan-I’m often trying to think of things to say like this, but she just does it and brilliantly. She was totally about to bring that Shardblade out-I almost wish she’d gotten Amaram out of the way at this point, but the end of the story would have been so different.
Mad for Renarin, I hope he can find his place, even if that place is to hang between two places. He deserves to find a little peace after the emotional torture he’s had from dad then circumstances in the first two books.
On the glyph page-I always assume it’s from Nazh to Khriss unless it says otherwise.
As for Hoid and Sazed, how does he hide from Shards? He has so many tricks that we don’t know about-and neither does anyone else!
The only interesting thing not included in the article… Navani urging Shallan to get married sooner so she can have more stability in these troubled times. Really? I guess mother’s in law can get annoying on Roshar too. Even when they’re generally awesome people.
#25, @birgit:
We are actually in Shalash’s POV at the end of this book, when she sees Jasnah holding a picture of her. Shalash recognizes it as being drawn by Cephandrius.
In fact, in the WoB quoted above, Brandon specifically says that the Heralds are essentially Rosharan Returned. They’re Slivers, Cognitive Shadows with a fragment of a Shard’s power.
Since it was requested last week, the following is a SPOILER for Warbreaker.
I mentioned in a previous comment thread that Vasher, as a Nalthian Returned, is also a Sliver. Of course it isn’t identical–he inhabited his own corpse instead of getting a new body.
@27 KefkaPalazzo
I agree, though I can see how it could be seen both ways. I would also figure Jasnah would be more inclined to soulcast Amaram while outside of his armor, rather than face a trained soldier with a blade. True she could heal, but I feel she would be far faster on the draw with soulcasting. That and maybe it is my little devil inside that would love to see the look on Amaram’s face after being transformed into a crystal statue. Or fire. Or oil…….. lol
@28 Joyspren
I whole heartily agree! This is a great opportunity to break through many gender norms enforced on Roshar by the reigning religious organization. Jasnah will allow people to still be Vorin if they so choose and worship as they wish, so long as they are not forced to do so. The faces of the highprinces at the end of the book were priceless :)
Yeah, definitely hoping the poor kid will get a break one day. Renarin has started showing glimmers of confidence that are growing. Makes you root all the more for him, am I right?
@29 Carl
Well that WoB posted earlier does mention another rather big difference between Heralds and Returned. The Heralds do not require the weekly infusion of investiture to stay alive. So there is something going on that is different in that regard.
Wall of Text Warning re: Jasnah being well within her rights to rebuff Amaram the way she did. Feel free to skip over.
I wanted to take more of a closer look between the confrontation between Jasnah (one of my favorite Stormlight characters, if not my most favorite) and Amaram (one of my most despised Stormlight characters, up there with Sadeas and possibly Moash)
Being a huge Jasnah fan, I think the few POVs that we receive from her are significant. Jasnah seems to be a very discerning judge of character; not generally too quick to rush to judgement, but willing to accept (or reject) people for who/what they are and do. So, its noteworthy that ever since the beginning of Words of Radiance she has shown she does not like Amaram. At all.
So after reading their confrontation a few times it became quite clear that, ther than Jasnah disparaging Amaram’s mother, any negativity attached to the Jasnah/Amaram encounter in this chapter is all Amaram’s fault. By far.
You can basically break their confrontation down to 6 parts:
I. Not a good start, Meridas.
That’s a pretty clear way for Jasnah to communicate to Amaram that she did not want to be found by him. He could have left right after that comment without making more of a scene. (Seriously, take the hint, guy. She doesn’t want to deal with you right now) But he didn’t…
II. Rejected, over and over again. Jasnah rejects Amaram’s request to talk privately four times:
These weren’t even subtle. She told him to leave on three separate occasions.
III. Crossing the line. After the fourth rejection, Amaram goes too far:
I defy anyone to defend the actions of any man who harasses a woman, is told to leave four separate times, and then puts their hands on that woman. That’s it. He’s done. He doesn’t deserve to receive any benefit of the doubt; he assaulted her and should have been thrown out of the room right then and there.
Honestly, we could have just stopped right there, as it is clear that Amaram’s at fault for this whole situation. But Amaram’s mother was brought into the conversation, so I guess we should criticize the person who did that…
IV. Amaram brings his own mother into the conversation:
Yeah, Jasnah calls him mediocre (and a whole lot more). Then he tries to bring in how that’s an insult to his mother (Why? Was he trying to invoke some sense of sisterhood in Jasnah by bringing up another woman?). He brought his own mother into the confrontation! And that’s when Jasnah clowns his mother (admittedly, by essentially calling her a bit of a soldier-loving-tramp, which was not a good look), after Amaram had already brought her into this.
V. Amaram resorts to calling Jasnah names:
So after Jasnah insults his mother, he calls her a godless whore. Then he implies that if she weren’t a woman he sure would do something that she might regret. So Jasnah claps back with a quip about him being more interested in her if she were a pig (Bestiality dig. A little classless, but then again he had already harassed, assaulted and insulted her so… what are you gonna do?)
VI. Amaram escalates the situation yet again.
He finally lets go of her, so that he can summon his Blade and threaten her in a more physical manner. Fortunately, Jasnah can counter his Shardblade with her KR abilities. Knowing that, Amaram runs away. This guy is not quality stock. He’s a selfish, abusive coward. He doesn’t really seem to care about what others really want, nor does he seem to respect other people all that much, if at all.
This is one the many reasons why I reject the notion that Jasnah is to blame for the treacherous actions of Amaram and Sadeas’s troops at Thaylen City, by not acting kinder or more diplomatically to Amaram here. Amaram never really wanted to heal any rift between Kholin and Sadeas. He wanted to manipulate House Kholin towards achieving his own goals. Add to that the fact that Ialai Sadeas wanted revenge on the Kholins after the death of Torol, and the fact that Ialai and Torol had already planned to overthrow the throne and rule Alethkar themselves, and it’s clear that House Sadeas could never be bargained with in good faith, and would never really want to follow the Kholins.
But yeah, Jasnah probably shouldn’t have talked about his mom like that…
Yay, Jasnah! She is, along with Dalinar, my favorite SA character. But while it is nice to know that she will eventually become a main character, it is hard for me to to content myself with what she gets in the first half of the series so far – and knowledge that her flashback book is going to be either N°8 or 10 – i.e. will come out in 15-20 years, doesn’t help.
Anyway, when I first read this chapter, I greatly enjoyed Jasnah’s interaction with her Veristitalian friends – and hoped that they would come to help her with her research – which has become even more vital, now that she is going to be distracted from her work by being a monarch of a nation in exile. Also, some Elsecaller squires are badly needed and “Yoichi” might set a powerful precedent by revealing himself. It is the end of the world – normal considerations need to be set aside.
I also noticed with some amusement that some of the scholars working under Jasnah’s direction are ardents – but can they be trusted not to twist/suppress the evidence in favor of Vorinism? She needs to put somebody both competent and objective in charge and her friends could be that. Shallan will pitch in too, I imagine, but she’ll have so many other things on her plate and she isn’t a trained historian either.
I also find it very frustrating that Jasnah seemingly doesn’t see the importance of things that she appears to have learned in Shadesmar for their current situation – everything from spren politics to any snatches of history as seen from their side could provide precious clues for the best course of action available to them. Also, hopefully the problem of voidspren spying on them from the other side and possible means to prevent them should occur to her soonest, IMHO.
Oh, yea, there is a tantalizing recent WoB that Jasnah is rather Cosmere- aware – which she must have become as a result of her side-trip into the Cognitive, as there was no sign of it previously. Which, again, could be rather important in the light of the revelations of Elia Stele.
The gemstone archive is great – but you’d think that the ancient Radiants would have also left something more accessible – like clay/metal tablets or something. Not to mention, some more practical information.
Re: Renarin, we know from his conversation with Rock that Jasnah is not wrong – he had refused the more intellectual path because of fear, rather than for any other reason. It is rather startling to remember that Renarin, like Adolin, didn’t know his glyphs and only learned them in order to decipher and write down his visions – which often included them. Kaladin is much better educated than those princes, in some respects, though, presumably, not for the lack of trying on Jasnah and Navani’s parts. Even Dalinar knew his glyphs by the time he was planning the second attack on the Rift.
Speaking of improved multi-target spanreeds – their invention won’t be a moment too soon, because Tashyyk spanreed connection exchange is the obvious target for anybody wanting to disrupt communications. Here is to hoping that the Fused, while very experienced in the past methods of warfare and artisan skills, are too set in their ways to quickly adapt and anticipate new technology – it is currently the greatest advantage that the anti-Odium coalition has. Heralds and Radiants versus the Fused and the voidforms didn’t suffice during the past Desolations – they need to provide normal people with the means to hurt and kill the Fused to prevail.
Finally, despite all my love of Jasnah, I was very disappointed with her handling of Amaram – and, in fact, her behavior there made me doubt her fitness to rule. As a queen she’ll have to work and find common ground with people she despises – rather than pointlessly alienating them and offering them mortal insults in public. Not to mention that as an intelligencer for her family, it really behooved her to find out what Amaram wanted to tell her. “Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer”, and all that.
Particularly since in a later PoV Jasnah thought of Amaram mainly as a nuisance who might botch things trying to prove his mettle as a general, because he wasn’t as competent in her opinion as he was in his own. In which case, her behavior in this chapter was just stupid and harmful to Kholin cause. Not to mention that she was wrong about Amaram – Shallan was really impressed by his research into Urithiru and the glyph “language” that it was written in, which eventually helped her figure out it’s location. So, like with Sebarial, Jasnah was wrong about Amaram, who did have hidden talents – which just didn’t agree with Vorin norms.
Heraldic bodies – maybe what was going on with them was along the lines of a Vessel’s body being reconstituted from investiture of a Shard in case of their death or laying down the power? Also, they don’t change much – Jezrien did look somewhat older as an alcoholic beggar than he did at Aharietam, but otherwise they remain pretty much the same, from what we know so far.
Oh, jah, and after further insight into Alethi naming conventions in the previous chapter, we get from the First Oath glyphs some words that should have been rather popular in names:
“Javani” – life, “Katef” – strength.
Amaram was “exuding confidence, or was it conceit?” Yeah, I don’t think I can tell the difference either.
I’m trying to figure out if a seven-month pregnancy on Roshar is equivalent to a nine-month pregnancy on Earth, assuming that’s the approximate normal timespan. Citing various sources, the Coppermind Wiki says that on Roshar, 1 hour = “a minute or two less than an Earth hour,” 1 day = 20 hours, 1 week = 5 days, 1 month = 10 weeks, 1 year = 10 months = 1.1 Earth years. So 7 months = 350 days, far longer than 9 Earth months. Factoring in the difference in day length reduces the gap to 21.5 Roshar days. Factoring in the difference in hour length would reduce it farther, but I don’t know by how much.
Or I could be putting the wrong equations in my calculator and getting it all wrong. My math abilities have become vestigial. And I don’t usually care about such minutiae, but that quote piqued my interest.
Thanks for the shout out ladies!
Since Aimia is an island country, like Hawaii used to be and many others still are, I’ll speculate the food delights of the lands were mostly creatures caught from their oceans. Look to Polynesian and Caribbean food traditions for inspiration.
We could say he choked on a Rosharian lamprey. Than he’d be in company with King Henry I of England.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/88937/9-famous-people-supposedly-killed-food-or-drink
As for the story, one of the ways Atila the Hun died was choking. Another was a nose bleed. I’m guessing Brandon pulled inspiration from multiple sources.
He may have wanted his own “Red Wedding”, but is not as violent as GRRM. :-D
Because, even if the king killed all his relatives, there were still servants and soldiers around to slap him on the back. Unless they had a “no touch” rule in place.
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/04/30/thai-queen/
Sorry, I’m on mobile and can’t make the links pretty.
An Upvote for Ki!
Judging from the dysfunction of the heads of the Kholin family it makes a world of sense for Jasnah to play the mother hen. Gavilar was distracted and generally uninterested in the lives of his family in the pursuit of his greater goals. Dalinar was an addict who spent most his days in a daze. For some reason she doesn’t trust Navani though she respects her. In Jasnah’s mind she’s just filling a void.
Jasnah’s conflict with Amaram proves her humanity in a way not much else could. It shows that even someone of Jasnah’s remarkable intelligence can have blindspots. Amaram has the power to color all her perceptions. In fact, I believe a significant portion of her disdain of Stormwardens is because Amaram belongs to that group.
#30, @Scáth:
Oh, they clearly aren’t identical. Roshar is not Nalthis and its Investiture works differently. They’re similar, but there are going to be differences.
#3, @AeronaGreenjoy:
Remember, there are no Homo sapiens on Roshar. It’s an alien planet, and the inhabitants that we call “human” are actually immigrants from (at least) two different other alien planets. The Vorin story about coming from the Tranquiline Halls is a distorted memory of coming from another world.
hey Carl. which version of the book do you have? (hardcover, paperback, etc?). i ask because you say Ash calls Hoid ‘Cephandrius’, and my Kindle edition shocked me when she called him Midius (from the Liar of Partinel). but agree with you…she recognizes Hoid’s artistry in the drawings that Jasnah passes out…
@36: Yes, that’s why their typical timespan of pregnancy might be different from ours. I’m trying to figure out if it is.
@33 AeronaGreenjoy
Using the assumption that the Roshar hour = 58 minutes (conversion rate of 100 Roshar hours = 97 Earth hours), my calculations show a difference of two days longer for pregnancy on Roshar.
Earth: 40 weeks = 280 days
Roshar: 70 weeks = 350 days = 7000 Roshar hours = 6767 Earth hours = 282 Earth days
@35: Except Jasnah only fills the void with Renarin… If Gavilar indeed was more focused on his higher pursuits, if Navani somehow isn’t to be trusted and considering Dalinar was a useless drunk, then who looked out for Adolin and Elhokar as they were growing up?
Hence, I don’t think Jasnah would have filled in any relationship void within her family, she filled out this particular one because it was Renarin and she felt a special connection to him. She has less of a connection with her own brother and her other cousin, so she always were emotionally distant with them. The Kholin family might present a unified front, but in reality, the adults all seemed more focused on their own needs than on the younger ones. Jasnah’ relationship with Renarin being the exception, not the norm. It is not normal every single male Kholin grew up feeling inadequate. By saying this, I am not putting blame on Jasnah: it wasn’t her responsibility, but I do wonder how it happened Renarin, Adolin and Elhohar all had… the same problems.
I also wonder why Jasnah feels Navani isn’t to be trusted…
Re: Nazh’s complaint in the calligraphy. That guy is never happy, is he? He whines and complains about being sent stupidly dangerous places, and now that he’s sent somewhere where the most dangerous thing is carpal tunnel, he complains about that!
“Often the greatest threat to a ruling family was its own members. Why were so many of the old royal lines such knots of murder, greed, and infighting? And what make the few exceptions different?”
Perhaps this is foreshadowing the confrontation with Renarin end of book? Both her considering Renarin as a big threat and her decision not to give into murder and infighting.
“Yes, from what I understand, she spent the seven months she was with child entertaining each and every military man she could find, in the hopes that something of them would stick to you.”
In a culture that prides itself on military ability, this reads just as much an insult on his father if not more. The implication is that the mother had to do this as his actual father was so inept militarily.
@42 John: Good catch at the insult to the father! No one else has mentioned that, but it was an insult to both parents.
@41 – yeah, he is happiest when he can tell others how unhappy he his – I know some people like that (in fact, I’m like that sometimes) :p
@40 Count me as one who doesn’t fully trust Navani. Most of the time she seems great, but there are moments – I can’t even pin them down- that I question her. Maybe it’s that the full picture of her doesn’t make sense to me yet, and it’s clear that she has had struggles both with her marriage and parenting that haven’t been fully explained.
Judging from the obvious affection Adolin holds for ‘Aunt Navani’, I would guess that Adolin gets his from her. Elkohar seems like Jasnah, doing his best to resist mothering. It kinda makes me think Gavilar has a lot to do with marginalizing Navani’s efforts with their children. If he constantly ignores his wife and her interests then the learned behavior is that nothing she has to say is worthy of attention. Total speculation but there it is. If Renarin is the forgotten Kholin and Jasnah is enough like her mother to have a mother hen type instinct with those she’s close to, then a void is being filled. The role is more limited than I implied I guess but a void is a void. Or maybe she’s the caretaker of the Kholin dynasty because she’s uniquely equipped to do so but she pays special attention to Renarin because he needs it more.
@43: Yes, I share your thoughts. I too have felt something smelled wrong with Navani’s character and while I do agree my feelings may just be the side-effect of a lack of characterisation, I am not willing to ignore them. I too feel there is something… wrong with both her married life and her parenting of her children. I can’t put my finger on it, but the more we dig into this re-read, the more I feel the Kholin family is more dysfunctional then it appears, upon first glance.
Also, Navani comes across as a cold individual and it is odd to me both her children rejected her. In comparison, Dalinar was a useless drunk for years, he downright rejected his sons for periods of their life and they still blindly love him for it. What did Navani do for her own kids to be so distant with her? It can’t just be personality-linked, Renarin also is not an affectionate individual nor an expressive one, and he loves his father just the same.
@44: Adolin is a naturally affectionate individual. Prior to OB, a majority of readers argued the Dalinar/Adolin relationship was healthy, close and based on mutual love and respect. Oathbringer and additional WoB indicate Adolin’s hero-worship of his father might be the tree which is hiding the forest. Hence, I do not think a few scenes where Adolin shows affection with present-day Navani implies she actually provided him emotional support during the hard times following his mother’s death. I am not convinced she filled in any void here.
This being said, I could see Gavilar shunning Navani and her efforts which in turn caused her own children to lose respect into her and to turn away from her. Gavilar could have adopt the “anti-Evi” behavior, who glorified a absent father to her sons, by discrediting his wife to his.
As for Jasnah, we have yet to see her develop a close relationship with someone not exhibiting the qualities she enjoys within other people. With Renarin, I always felt she was close to him not to fill-in a void nor because she had a “mother instinct”, more because he was more like her. Solemn. Quiet. Thoughtful. Intellectual. A scholarly mind. Neither her brother nor Adolin have the qualities she praises into other people, hence she is more distant towards them. Jasnah had a special kinship with Renarin, hence her behavior. I thought it was good to find out Renarin was not “forgotten”, but actually had people who cared/loved him.
On Renarin not having know his glyphs: I thought he said he had been learning how to read/write letters not glyphs, but if he indeed did not know his glyphs until recently, it puts an all new light on Navani shunning Adolin for not knowing his… If Renarin, the intellectual boy interested in higher learning did not assimilate the concept of glyphs up until he had a need for it, then it may be most men truly have no idea how to read them. If this is true, then the pre-dueling scene in WoR reads in a much different manner, I find. And Navani doesn’t come across as a nice person…
@31 KiManiak
I could not agree more with everything you said! I would also add, if Amaram was willing to act this way in public, it makes one wonder how much worse he acts in private when alone with a woman, and when he is armed.
@32 Isilel
I can’t wait either! But I keep telling myself it will be worth the wait!
Ooooo Elsecaller squires would be awesome, though I am concerned given that Ivory is an outlier of his people, that that might be extremely rare for now. I do hope the order starts to fill out like the Windrunners do.
I found the fact that Jasnah can get ardents to work under her very encouraging regarding how Jasnah will handle being a Queen. Even with the potential stormwarden plotting, she can get everyone united towards a common goal.
As said in the past, everything Jasnah knows could potentially be out of date due to the Recreance. We won’t know for sure till we get a longer peak in her head.
Would be awesome if after Stormlight is done, Jasnah starts traveling the Cosmere at large. Would be epic to see her pop up in other novels :)
It was mentioned that the Radiants of old were concerned about the Unmade penetrating Urithiru. Perhaps they picked that means to record so as not to be vulnerable to the enemy?
Interesting points about Renarin.
Good point about Tashikk. It is largely the only thing, other than the oathgates, keeping the United Honor Army together. Hmmm I think I will coin that now, UHA lol.
Here is one point we will have to disagree on. Being a ruler does mean working with people you would rather not, but it also does not mean you abide a certain level of treatment, and it also does not mean it is necessarily in the nations best interest to put anyone in charge. A general can be skilled in combat, but if you do not trust him to follow your orders when needed, then he is not a general you should have to work with. I am with KiManiak here. Amaram was completely in the wrong, and already proven untrustworthy. Now this view was ultimately validated in the end so at this point it is rather self referential, but if you know an individual in power has betrayed you, your family, and others before multiple times, why would you then trust them with important tasks and vulnerable positions?
@35 EvilMonkey
Loving your posts as always! Some have problems with Jasnah that she is too “perfect”, while others have problems with her because she makes mistakes. At the end of the day, Jasnah is human. She isn’t going to be perfect, and she is going to make mistakes. The mark of a strong person and character, is one who makes mistakes, but acknowledges said mistakes, and endeavors to do better. That to me is Jasnah all over.
I do have more to say about your later post, so will reply there.
@36 Carl
No problemo. Wasn’t writing that to dispute the connection you pointed out. Just makes me wonder what is different about the Heralds that they do not require investiture weekly, while the Returned do. Is it because the Returned just get attached to the body, and then endowment lets them go, while the Heralds having a body grown for them have a constant link? Has this been affected since the death of Honor, since the honorblades themselves no longer draw directly from Honor after his death? So many questions!
@42 John
All good points!
@44 EvilMonkey
Again, all excellent points. I appreciate you trying to understand the characters further, and see their motivations from their perspectives. How parents interact with each other most definitely affects their children, and how those children chose to interact with their parents. That could be a large part of why Navani is close with Dalinar’s children. Given the age difference between Jasnah/Elhokar and Adolin/Renarin, I could see Navani really mothering both Adolin and Renarin as it would be like having a second chance at having children. She did say Jasnah almost didn’t have a childhood, and I would imagine Elhokar was distant while trying to fill his father’s shoes.
@39 ThunderCrush
Why are you assuming that 1 Rosharan hour is not the same as 1 Earth hour? My assumption was always that they just have a longer year (maybe about the length of a Martian year).
@47 RogerPavelle
I simply used the values that @33 AeronaGreenjoy provided. Specifically “Coppermind Wiki says that on Roshar, 1 hour = ‘a minute or two less than an Earth hour'”.
@FSS, just me misremembering. It was Midius, but of course they’re the same person so my memory just switched the aliases.
Just jumping in to get this in my conversations, and to make a very minor point. We know from the WoB that the artwork is from Nazh, but if you want internal evidence, there’s this. The penmanship used is exactly the same as what Isaac uses for every Nazh letter, and Nazh most often addresses his letters to Khriss, “My friend.” In addition, his swearing “by Purity’s Eye” certainly reflects his origin on Threnody, where the outermost planet in the system is called Purity.
Also, 6 Rosharan months = 8.92 Earth months, using the stated conversion factor of 1:1.1 years, and remembering that a Rosharan year is 10 months.
AeronaGreenjoy @33: Echoing ThunderCrush @39, I did the same calculations a while ago and got essentially the same result. (I know I posted them somewhere on Tor.com, but can’t find it right now.) Team Sanderson did the work to make sure the length of time was consistent with real-world pregnancies.
@50 Wetlandernw
Thanks for that. I remembered Purity was a big thing is Shadows for Silence, but its been awhile since I read Arcanum Unbound, so I didn’t link it to “by Purity’s Eye”. Cool bit of info :)
Is it just me, or do other people here find themselves humming the theme to “Goldfinger”, but substituting “Oathbringer”?
ETA:
Oath-BRINGER / It’s the shard-blade Dalinar can touch. / But not that much.
Also Oath-BRINGER / is a book he’s writing about his sin. / But…that’s feminine!
I have just found out Brandon plans to start writing his SA4 updates starting next January!!! These are such exciting news. I can’t wait to find out what the planning is for this book… how will he divide it, who’s viewpoint will he use and so on.
Soon, the fun begins :-)
Gepeto @@@@@ 55 – Agreed. I love mulling over those updates, teasing them apart for any little hints.
I checked the Wiki’s cited sources. The “1.1 years” was stated by Peter Ahlstrom at Dragonsteel in a 17th shard forum, but the fan posts there that give the “minute or two less than an Earth hour” quote link back to the Wiki saying so. My bad.
Through a Cosmere Facebook group,, I recently learned of the goofy #FakeKings “fake Twitter reviews” that fans did for The Way of Kings before the book debuted. In case anyone else hasn’t previously seen them, they are collected here on Brandon’s website and they are immensely hilarious.
@25: as a person of Chinese descent, seeing that glyph evolution also made me think of the evolution of the Chinese language. In addition to the examples in that picture, the evolution of the characters for the words “fire,” “water,” “grass,” “forest,” “dragon,” and many others are also very interesting.
It’s also interesting to note that the Chinese in Mainland China, which is commonly referred to as Putonghua or Mandarin, is written using Simplified Script. Cantonese, which is the dialect of Chinese used in Hong Kong, many parts of Southern China such as Guangzhou, and many of the original Chinatowns around the world, is written using Standard Script.
Chinese was much, much harder for me to learn than English, that’s for sure. Where / how does Brandon come up with a new language system, let alone one that seems even more complicated and intricate than Chinese??!
@56: Yes. I am mostly anxious to see how the various viewpoints will be arranged…
We know Venli/Eshonai are the focus characters, but tossing in a minor character into the role of a protagonist is tricky. Will Brandon give Venli the lion share of the narrative, as he did with Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar, or will he go for a shorter main narrative for her?
What does it mean for other characters? Who takes a step down from the first three spots? Dalinar or Shallan? Both?
And does Brandon have surprises for us?
So many questions! Book 4 marks a change within how books were organized so far and I can’t wait to see what form it will take. Not to forget the opportunity to ask him how many pages we can expect for Adolin ;-)
@Gepeto: “And does Brandon have surprises for us?” That one’s a given, isn’t it?
@60: Oh so true, this is a given, but I find myself being really excited by this book (and no not because I am somehow expecting some great Adolin related arc, though I will find a way to figure out what to expect here). I am excited about SA4 because it marks the first book the main protagonists won’t necessarily be Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar. At least one of those three characters will not be one of the top three characters which means whatever arc we’ll read, it won’t necessarily revolve around one of those characters.
It will be so refreshing!
I could do with less Dalinar, even the new and improved type. But any reduction in Shallan had best be replaced with an equivalent (or greater) amount of high-quality snark from new and/or returning characters. It’s the primary reason I read these books.
Porphyrogenitos @11:
No, the Fused don’t have the same appearance in different bodies – Moash specifically notes that, when he encounters the re-embodied Leshwi again – but they do retain the same skin “marbling” pattern throughout, changing it from the original owner’s, somehow. There is also an off-hand mention in WoR that marbling patterns are significant to the listeners, but without further explanation as to why.
I also suspect that Odium is very parsimonious in his granting of investiture to his minions and cosmetic changes to their appearance are way down the list of necessary investiture expense for him.
AndrewHB @12:
I see spanreeds as a mix of telegraph and radio, so more late 19th – early 20th century technology. And revolutionizing interactions over distances and military strategy in the same way.
KefkaPalazzo @16:
The problem with Jasnah – Amaram being “personal” is that in her upcoming musing about him, there is no hint of it. She just thinks about him as a nuisance – a mediocre commander who’d cause trouble by trying to prove himself better than he is – in her opinion.
I know that there have been attempts to tie Amaram to whatever happened to cause Jasnah’s “madness” – but the thing is, they are the same age, both around 35. I.e. he too would have been 10-11 at the time.
But that’s where we run into one of the many contradictions in Sanderson’s depiction of Amaram – contradictions due to the fact that the character was supposed to die in WoR to Iyatil’s dart and never have to stand up to close scrutiny. Namely, that Dalinar always considered him a very good general – and he should know better than Jasnah, this being his area of undoubted excellence. OTOH, Kaladin’s experiences in his army mostly support Jasnah’s judgement – with the cave-out that Kal tended to tunnel-vision in the past, as demonstrated by the incident with the side-carry and it’s effect on overall strategy.
Another big contradiction is this great friendship that was supposed to exist between Dalinar and Amaram in WoR – yet after OB, it is nearly impossible to see when it could have formed. Amaram is in only one flashback and there he is part of Sadeas’s army and doesn’t interact with Dalinar in any significant way.
KiManiak @31:
I disagree that Jasnah is as great a judge of character as you imply. On the contrary, we have seen numerous misjudgements on her part – Sebarial, Aesudan, Taravangian, etc. IMHO, she lacks instinctual feel for it – she learned to compensate through logic, but it is not perfect.
But regardless of what she thought about Amaram, it was uncharacteristically stupid to insult him in public and to refuse to give him a brief hearing. To me, it read and still reads like fan-service to Kaladin fans, particularly given the fact that the Sadeas couple, who had done much worse and were much worse people, continued to be given Xth chances throughout the books.
As a student of history, Jasnah in particular should have known that you’d better prepare to eliminate a powerful person after you have publicly offended them like that, because they are going to try to exact revenge. Nor was Amaram wrong to point out that if she had been a man, there would have been a duel. Later on, Renarin would tell Shallan that this was how Adolin routinely reacted to disparagement of his little brother.
And if you see the whole interaction solely through the prism of a man importuning a woman, how do you view Dalinar inflicting a horrible vision on Fen in order to frighten her and make her a “captive audience” after she refused to talk to him further? Yes, he had something very important to tell her – but so did Amaram, in his own opinion, at least. And likely objectively, too, since he was likely teetering in his convictions at the time, knew where Taln was and could have offered some badly needed insight into Gavilar and the Sons of Honor.
And also, House Sadeas needed to be dealt with in one way or another – it was stupid to just keep them there, seething. They needed to be either brought into the fold or eliminated – in either case, refusal to treat with Amaram was counter-productive, as problematic as he was, he was their best chance to bridge the differences, after Ialai clearly rejected anything like that. And if not, they shouldn’t have tipped him off to impending attack by unrelenting hostility. Again, Jasnah as a scholar of history and an intelligencer for her family should have known this.
I guess that all of this is supposed to be some kind of “teachable moment” for Kholins – giving too much leeway to Sadeas’ and stonewalling Amaram both led to avoidable disasters, but while the reveal of Dalinar’s partial amnesia explained the former, the latter just seems too implausible and contrived.
Gepeto @40:
It is very easy to see why all young male Kholins would have had an inadequacy complex – Gavilar and Dalinar were seen as Great Men with the capital G. Navani, OTOH, was underestimated by everybody, including her husband and herself – in WoK she thought of herself only as a patron of actual fabrial scientists and a dabbler. She was certainly not seen as a Great Woman, like Jasnah, for instance, is. As a result, the boys felt much more pressure to measure up and that resulted in feelings of inadequacy.
It is also clear since his first PoV in WoK that Adolin had a very warm relationship with Navani and wished for her presence. And OB revealed closeness between Jasnah and Renarin. So, it seems to me that Dalinar’s boys were partitioned between the most compatible relatives after their mother’s death and possibly even before, when she began to spend half a year with her husband. And they happened to be female, therefore not in conflict/competition with the boys’ self-image.
As to Gavilar’s role in all this – my curiosity about it, as well as desire to see how Elhokar fit into things was one of the reasons why I really wished for just one chapter from the PoV of the latter. Now we’ll have to wait for Gavilar’s prologue and/or Renarin’s flashback book to get some insight into it. I wouldn’t discount Aesudan’s influence as a cause of distance between Navani and her son as seen in current SA, though, as well as whatever relationship troubles existed between her and her husband.
@45:
I absolutely don’t see Navani as “cold” – nor is Adolin as easy with his affections as you claim, because he would have been fond of many more people if so – including his cousin, the king. In fact, one of the reasons for conflicts between Jasnah and her mother was likely that Navani was too “warm” and emotional for her daughter’s taste, as well as actively tried to steer her towards conventional path of marriage, etc.
As to Renarin – he was a boy with intellectual gifts, who fought very hard against giving into his natural talents and inclinations, as Rock pointed out to him in his counseling session. He clearly resisted anything that could have made steering him towards ardentia easier. So, yes, he didn’t learn his glyphs until he needed to and then he did it very quickly. This didn’t make Adolin’s ignorance of glyphs any more sensible. _His_ manliness and worth as a warrior was never in doubt – and even Dalinar was seen annotating maps with glyphs prior to Second Rathalas.
Scath @46:
Situation with Elsecaller spren would make Jasnah getting squires ASAP even more important, IMHO. They don’t require spren of their own, after all – Ivory would suffice to give them access to some powers. And I feel that to survive without their homeland, Alethi need a source of Soulcasting unconstrained by the devices and less damaging to gems. Jasnah and Shallan between them can’t do it all on their own and I am not sure if Lightweaver squires get access to Transformation.
I also want to see more squires who aren’t soldiers/former soldiers/wished that they could have been soldiers, etc.
I don’t see how everything that Jasnah knows about the Cosmere from her jaunt into Shadesmar could be out of date. Current spren politics are very relevant, for instance, as is voidspren presence/activity there and the fact that there are other planets populated by humans who did _not_ destroy them is huge and can be a powerful counter-argument to the self-defeating view of humans as being intrinsically a danger to the worlds which they occupy. Etc. Our Heroes have certainly learned a lot of important things during _their_ visit to the realm of spren – but Jasnah should have already known and shared some/most of it. Finally, the gem library is also “out of date”, but Jasnah, properly, sees that there is valuable information hidden in it even so.
@62: I think that, within Brandon’s chosen structure (which focuses on a limited number of characters) all characters can end up suffering from over-exposure.
After WoR, I felt Kaladin was within this position: the first two books focused heavily on him and I feared a third book with such a strong focus may be too much. Luckily, Brandon agreed with me and Kaladin inherited a smaller arc which I do believe was beneficial for his character.
After OB, I feel Shallan is currently within this position: another equally focused arc revolving around Veil/Radiant is likely to be too much, but I trust Brandon not to be repetitive and to know when it is time to steer a given character within the background and when it is time to drag him/her out. The same is likely true for Dalinar who just had the most “focused” narrative we have read so far. His character ends up in a “stable place” and, as such, I do not expect another large arc for him going into book 4. Brandon also said to expect less of him than within book 5, whatever that means considering we have no idea of what Dalinar’s arc will look like within this book.
My thoughts are, after three books, the narrative needs to breath and to refresh itself which is why I am excited the focus characters aren’t the previously top three characters. Focusing again, on the same three characters, would start making the recipe feel… used. So I’m glad for the opportunity to read new adventures!
There always were some level of snarkiness and humor within all of Brandon’s books, so I have no doubt he will find ways to insert them. Despite what I said, I doubt Shallan nor anyone is disappearing out of the narrative, I just expect less of the currently main three than we had in OB. Considering we have spent a lot of time within those characters heads, I do not feel they need the same amount of page time for their narrative to unfold.
Just my thoughts. It is so fun to speculate on this.
@63:
On Amaram: Someone asked a question on his character within the latest AMA. If Brandon answers, I’ll post it here.
On Jasnah: I agree with you. Jasnah strikes me as an individual who is compensating her lack of emotional intelligence and instinct by rationalizing what she perceives as clues. The portrait it gives though is often erroneous because people aren’t always logical.
I also agree it was stupid from both Jasnah and Dalinar to refuse to deal with House Sadeas. This refusal to take action is what initially caused Adolin to snap: Sadeas had to be dealt with but no one was doing anything. Now, they are still doing nothing about it, they aren’t trying to win them over, now Sadeas is gone, nor are they trying to eliminate them, they just left them to rot, hoping they would vanish within thin air.
I am not a military leader nor a politician, but discarding house Sadeas, a military power-house, on the eve of a Desolation seems like a bad move. For a man priding himself into using every assets put within his hands, Dalinar sure didn’t see fit to treat Amaram within similar ways as he treated Teleb. Those scenes made me love the moment where Dalinar finally admits how hypocritical he has been towards Amaram for wanting to execute him over crimes he is himself guilty of having done. We must not forget Amaram KNOWS about the Rift, hence from his perspective, watching Dalinar preach the higher moral ground must have been incredibly frustrating and unfair.
It doesn’t make his actions more acceptable, but it does put a few things within perspective. Why should he be treated like an enemy of Alethkar for having killed a squad of his men to earn Shards when Dalinar burned a whole town and killed his own men without suffering any loss of reputation? Given the context, Amaram’s anger and ressentment are not only totally plausible, they are understandable.
On Adolin/Navani: The point I tried to raise was how using the present relationship within characters may not yield a complete portrayal of their true relationship. Using only present day narrative, Dalinar comes across as a very loving, caring father towards Renarin, only wanting what is best for his youngest son and if he has a fault, it is within being over-protective. Nothing within this present day narrative such much as implies the truth which lies beneath this seemingly healthy relationship.
Hence, I fear by extrapolating a handful of scenes, in between Adolin/Navani, to state they have a close relationship and she, surely, had been there for him might lead to equally erroneous conclusions.
Adolin’s character has been very focused on being what others want him to be, no one really pierced through his shield, besides Shallan. I wouldn’t be surprising if 12 years old Adolin felt he needed to be strong, to power-on, to not crumble, to not be publicly sad, to become the man of the house just as I wouldn’t be surprised to hear Navani just let him be. There is this common asumption within house Kholin wanting Adolin will stand strong no matter what. His emotions are just not something we have seen in-world character focus on within the narrative or only in a superficial manner. I think we see, in OB, how this is beginning to wear him down.
On Navani: Something has not been working with her character and I. I can’t put my finger on it. It may be a lack of characterisation, but she comes across as cold and unsympathetic to me though I do realize this does not seem to be the reality. Maybe it is her “mean girls” act or the fact she allowed Evi to give Renarin a name he’d be laugh at for. I don’t know, I oscillate in between wanting to defend her and, well, not.
On Glyphs: The point I tried to raise was if Renarin didn’t bother learning glyphs, then there is nothing special about Adolin not learning his. Adolin is not an “exception”, but more a “normality”. If it were normal and well-seen for all young men to know their glyhps, Renarin surely would have learned them as they wouldn’t have been attached to anything negative, but he didn’t.
Also nothing says Adolin wouldn’t be able to learn his glyphs in a fast way too, but I would argue he is too hung up on expectations to be willing to try. Perhaps Shallan will coerce him into learning much like he coerce her to learn how to fight. This would be such a neat mirror :-)
On Kholin boys: All three boys have similar issues which are both a combination of having grown up with Great Men, as you put it, but it also happens because it plays into their respective flaws.
Elhokar was a man who couldn’t live up to his father’s legacy and failed to steer away from his uncle over-bearing shadow. Dalinar made things worst by his rigidity and his inability to trust other people can do the work (a fact confirmed by a recent WoB). Had Dalinar, someone, actually trust Elhokar to be the King, he might have faired much better. His character flaw would be pride as it prevented him from seeing the situation as it really was until he was too late to fix it.
Renarin is a man who was ignored and rejected by his father as a child presumably due to his inability to be a soldier (implied in the narrative). His character flaw would be his tunner-vision as even if he did have love/care from other people, even if he were encourage to seek a career falling in-line with his strenghts, he refused to accept any other path but soldering. Had he accept his strengths weren’t weaknesses before, he might have become more self-assertive.
Adolin is the perfect son, the one who lives up to the legacy, who’s everything both Dalinar/Gavilar ever wanted in a son. This resulted into insane pressure being tossed on Adolin to keep on living it up, especially considering his brother and cousin weren’t. His character flaw would be selflessness, normally a quality, but here a flaw as Adolin’s inability to prioritize himself, to see him be worthy of being a priority has caused him to spend a lifetime being what other people makes of him. Slowly, this has been eroding his relationship with Dalinar as Dalinar just doesn’t see him. Had Adolin been more self-centered he would have likely rejected Dalinar’s ideas of what a good person is as he would have been confident enough within his own worth to do it.
Hey I have talked about the possibility about Jasnah being on the Autism spectrum before and someone on Tumblr has copied and pasted a really good Post on the subject that I feel like now is the perfect time to share by copy and paste but before I do I want to preface it with un understanding of the difference between cognative empathy, or thr ability to instinctively UNDERSTAND what other person are feeling which tends to be missing by people missing on the autistic spectrum, and a lack of apatheive empathy of the lack of ability to CARE what others are feeling, which is more akin to a sociopath.
The two may LOOK similar from the OUTSIDE but are in many ways polor oppsites. With that disclaimer in mind.
…
Autistic!Jasnah: Masterpost
Okaaay, so, as you might have guessed from the title, this post is a long list of reasons Jasnah Kholin is autistic af.
The short version: Jasnah is autistic because I, a Known Autism, say so. Have a nice day.
The long version (format): A long series of chronological quotes that all follow this pattern: Quote. *Insert ramble about why this is an Autistic Thing* *Possible and probable further ramble about why I’m emotional about that.
That’s literally it, people. Buckle up, I’ve picked through all three books (yes all three) to compose this post for y’all. It’s not going to be short.
To business:
The Way of Kings:
Introducing Jasnah ‘I don’t have time for social niceties I’m busy’ Kholin. From the first interaction she’s…Bad at interacting. Iconic.
Jasnah is both blunt, direct, and honest in her speech as she is in her expectations from others. She doesn’t have the energy to deal with manipulation/lying/tarting up the truth to make it more socially acceptable bc she is a busy autistic lady with shit to do. (really, though, what she’s literally demanding here is the first rule of the autistic’s guide to easy conversation. Clear. Simple. To the point. To frills, no fuss.)
People do what people want to do and Jasnah doesn’t waste any time pretending she cares/that it matters to her for the sake of appearances. Again, this woman has a vendetta against typical social niceties and I love it.
Do I need to point out the lack of social niceties again or are y’all sensing a pattern at this point? *King lovingly embraces his darling granddaughter that Jasnah just saved and orders a feast prepared in her honour* Jasnah: ‘Thanks but no I’m too busy to socialise.’
Jasnah feelings>>>>>>logic. This is a fairly common theme, of Jasnah being ruled less by emotions/sentiment/societal pressures/expectations and much more by logic/her own reasoning. She has her own way of looking at the world, her own rules for how it works, and she won’t be swayed by anyone else’s opinions on how she should feel/behave.
Jasnah not being very self-aware in how people actually perceive her is also an autistic thing. Shallan notes several times that Jasnah is actually nowhere near as harsh/stern as she’s reputed to me, and, more importantly, she’s nowhere near as harsh/stern as she perceives herself to be. She also fails to note that Shallan actually enjoys the work/the challenge. This also implies that she takes what people say about her at face value and doesn’t have the necessary social skills to refute them.
Again, this is a fairly common autistic trait. We struggle to read other people’s body language, but they often struggle to read ours as well. A part of this is probably Jasnah deliberately cultivating this kind of persona, but even so, she’s too unsure of how she comes across to have completely mastered this.
Oh look, it’s one of the world’s biggest Autism Stereotypes (which I’m totally guilty of too): lining all the things up neatly, and making them Orderly.
Jasnah of the straightforward, blunt honesty and ‘what you see is what you get’ strikes again.
And here we see the Autistic Jasnah in her natural habitat: hyperfixating on her special interest.
The rest is under the cut for length!
Actually do to the length I have to split the post itself. I feel the whole thing is worth sharing in its entirety but it won’t fit in it’s limited space
Jasnah not doing anything unless it’s done Properly and Right according to her? Also Jasnah being indifferent towards things she hasn’t put any time into perfecting (such as drawing).
Again, Jasnah encouraging/reacting positively to genuine/honest emotions because she doesn’t Understand the whole guile/lying/not being honest thing because honestly what is the point?
Honestly, just, this whole thing. For a start it’s a massive transgression of the Vorin social norms/expectations, especially for Jasnah as a prominent public figure as the sister to the king. For another it’s that internal rules thing again. Jasnah’s world operates according to Jasnah’s principles and Jasnah’s understanding of it, no-one else’s.
*Jasnah ignores social expectations so hard she literally forgets other people exist in the world* Also, again, the hyperfixation on special interest.
Jasnah has a habit of doing this, this very cold, calculated, logical and pragmatic way of seeing the world as well as morality. Shallan considers the lives taken, the emotional aspect of the moral dilemma, the horror of murder. Jasnah just sees it almost as statistics, as four lives taken to save many more. Shallan also focuses on the cold hard facts of ‘I know how many people you just killed’ while Jasnah is engaged in weighing up the probability of how many she just saved. (In theory, the thugs might never have attacked anyone again, so Jasnah might not have saved anyone by her actions, which I think is what Shallan is getting at here. But that’s just…A moot point as far as Jasnah is concerned)
This is also an example of her black and white thinking. There’s more net good in what she did than there is net bad. That’s where her questioning/reasoning stops because it makes sense to her. Shallan exists in the grey area, but I don’t think Jasnah even sees it in cases like this.
This is an interesting one, and something I’ll talk about more a bit later, probably, but the way Jasnah comes across vs how she actually is. I totally get why Shallan views what she did as cold and callous, and in a way I suppose it was. It was fully planned and fully intentional. But I think for her it’s this kind of…separation between logic and sentiment. I think Jasnah feels very strongly and very deeply, but she doesn’t often display that to other people, and I also think she believes there’s a time and a place for that. Also, black and white thinking again. It comes off as cold to Shallan, but for Jasnah I think it feels more like common sense.
Again, black and white thinking. (I’m also surprised this moment doesn’t generate more Discourse…Or maybe it does, I’ve just avoided it, either way) This is both a case for Jasnah not being able to predict people’s responses/behaviours, and also black and white thinking/internal rules at play. As far as she’s concerned those men are criminals. She has no assurances that they won’t hurt anyone else again. They’re already criminals, and there’s no chance for redemption or leeway, here. She’s made up her mind. They’re all criminals. They’re all dangerous. They all die.
A)- routines the ‘tonight’ and the familiarity of this implies it’s something that happens every night. And the ‘fifty strokes’ is either another routine related thing, or an internal rule thing. Either way. Also this is probably a stim thing, since she’s using it to relax/de-stress.
Stimming.
Definitely, definitely, definitely an autistic thing. Issues with people entering Your Spaces or touching Your Things is a big autistic thing. (especially because the assurances about thieving don’t change her mind) Also the emphasis on notas in ‘this is a thing one absolutely does not do unless one wishes to die’.
Again, Jasnah taking what people say of her/how they say they perceive her at face value, and also lack of self-awareness in how people actuallyrespond to her.
Two things here: one, I’m like, 99% certain that Jasnah, who has been camped out at the hospital all this time waiting for Shallan to wake up is feeling anything but ‘impassive’ at this moment, in which case this is an example of her body language/facial expressions not matching up properly to her actual internal feelings, which is fairly common. And two: Jasnah’s apology being taken for a rebuttal and her obvious displeasure at it coming across that way when she literally intended the opposite (been there).
Also her general air of uncertainty/discomfort in this setting, which is one that’s obviously social/emotional. Also the fact that she pins her poor apology on lack of practice/familiarity with these kinds of interactions when, in theory, these kinds of things should come naturally to people. So like, lil bit of hinting/implication of scripting social things her, which I think her initial words reek of as well, as she’s said similar things before.
Again, a few things here, firstly that Jasnah is othered in a way by Shallan (and this isn’t the only time this happens, either) because of her lack of emotional response/social stuff. Secondly the fact that she’s clearly uncomfortable/struggles with this kind of conversation – the hesitation, the lack of responses are very much at odds with her usual composure and the way she has an answer for literally everything.
Anyways I am having difficulty getting the rest of the post here and I feel it articulates the point better than I could but if I remember correctly the too long don’t read version is Jasnah is FULL of love but TERRIBLE at SHOWING it
Let me try to continue where I left off.
(EDIT: I see what my problem was before. I cut it to close to the limit of how many characters I could use. I didn’t QUITE go over. But by cutting it so close I gave myself trouble. Cutting it shorter helped.
Words of Radiance:
Prologue and we’ve already got Jasnah experiencing sensory issues in a crowded room with lots of perfume. What a way to kick things off.
A)- Jasnah obviously not enjoying social events/parties (she literally spends all of this one…contemplating the assassination she’s plotting. Like. Mood.)
B)- Gavilar’s comment is…Strangely sad, I think?? And perhaps a bit too on point. (This is very much just my reading of things but)…I don’t know. I see Jasnah trying to make a little quip/a joke here and it being misinterpreted because of her tone. And then, again, there’s that idea of othering that came up at the end of TWOK.
But I think the ‘is it lonely to be so singular in your brilliance?’ I think that….A huge part of that ‘brilliance’ comes from a mixture of Jasnah’s autistic traits: her special interest/her focus in them/her dedication to pursuing them…but also that sense of being other. Of not fitting in. The rest of “us” she doesn’t belong, she doesn’t fit.
And I think this idea of their ‘simple thoughts’ as opposed to Jasnah’s brilliant ones is a little like what we see with Renarin in Oathbringer, where Adolin explains that he isn’t trying to be lofty and brilliant, people sometimes just have difficulty following him. And I think this is what’s happening with Jasnah here (and in other places, she frequently talks about the difficulty she has in teaching, and how her methods are too intense and involved)
And also I think that….The saddest bit about this is that I think she was….Trying to joke here? Trying to fit in with those ordinary people, ‘the rest of us’, and just making a sarcastic joke on the back of her father’s comment about most people enjoying parties and she just sort of ‘well, most people are idiots aren’t they?’ And that’s what prompts this little moment here. So even when she’s trying to fit, and trying to belong, she’s still cast as the outcast, and misunderstood, and othered and it Hurts Me. …
…
She literally topples into another world, effectively, and is just like ‘hm, I should make some notes on this and analyse them’. And. Yep. This is how she processes the world. By making sense of it, by treating everything according to Jasnah’s rules: it gets written down. It gets analysed. It gets understood. Bam.
Jasnah ‘I don’t have time for social expectations’ Kholin strikes again. Jasnah also just doesn’t care how anyone perceives her, social norms and expectations can go fuck themselves .
Again, the othering idea, as well as visible emotion being startling, as she’s typically so withdrawn/closed off/difficult to read. Yes friend, u guessed it, this is Peak Autism. Also the specific word in it being ‘relatable’ again marks that difference between Jasnah and…Everyone else. Again she’s different, again she doesn’t quite fit.
Again, Jasnah misreading things/not being able to anticipate how people are going to react to different things. Also her view of marriage as ‘restricting’ says a lot about how she sees it/probably relationships in general.
This right here is Jasnah explaining passing, without ever using the word ‘passing’. This is how Jasnah sees social interactions. They’re all illusions, they’re all, effectively, lies. They aren’t real to her. How people perceive others isn’t something that she can fit into her box of neat facts and logic. It’s this ever changing, insubstantial thing, ‘mere vapours’. And though she’s talking here about power and authority, the basic principle applies to literally every single social interaction ever. Aka: the secret behind how Jasnah Kholin (somehow) managed to convince ppl she’s allistic.
This is one of my favourite Underrated Jasnah Moments tbh because it says so much about her with such a simple gesture. We’ve established from the past book and a half that Jasnah is pretty bad when it comes to social interactions, and she’s even worse when it comes to displaying her emotions. But she’s not emotionless. She, personally, doesn’t see the value in visual arts, and hasn’t dedicated any time to it herself. Yet she keeps the gift that Shallan gives her. She understands how important this is to Shallan, and she quite literally treasures the art that Shallan gives her, and keeps it with her precious research/notes (and, like, Symbolism with her keeping her sentimental gifts and logic fuelled research in the same place/with the same level of importance/value, except one is hidden, and one is displayed)
And, like, Shall literally assumes Jasnah had just thrown away the picture?? And instead she’s got it kept safe with her most treasured possessions? Like??? The TL;DR version of this point is that Jasnah is horrendous at displaying her emotions/showing people how she feels about them/what they mean to her, but she feels things, goddammit. And now so am I.
…
…
Right. Now. Correct my autistic ass if I’m wrong, here, but I’m like 89% certain that ‘taking notes on the basic personalities/literally studying the people around you and making notes on the way they behave so you can actually understand them’ is not a typical allistic thing to do.
Jasnah can literally predict the oncoming apocalypse by the power of research, can she pin down some basic Facts about the people she’s observing around her? Nope. I wonder why.
Two things: one, this is probably (agonisingly) relating to whatever trauma Jasnah experienced as a child and I’ve got Painful Emotions about it. Secondly, Jasnah being very mature for her age/shucking Navani’s influence because it wasn’t what she thought she needed/wanted is, like, not exactly the most tactful/self-aware/socially conscious thing in the entire universe.
Oh look, it’s canon low!empathy Jasnah: from the words of her own mother no less.
(Also, small note here, as a low!empathy autistic myself: I really love the way Jasnah is written because it complements my own understanding of empathy which is…Fairly complicated. Jasnah isn’t just like none and done here. It’s not that she just doesn’t feel empathy so she doesn’t care? She isn’t characterised as this brutal, unfeeling, robotic ice queen. There are a lot of nuances and complexities here as to how she relates to those around her and I love it.
She obviously loves her family very deeply, and is driven to protect and help them (in a very practical, logical way I might add. Which is typically how I relate to care/love as well. You want a shoulder to cry on? I’m going to sit there awkwardly, pat you on the head, and hope you stop soon. There’s a practical solution to your current problem? Heaven and earth will be moved to achieve it.) She keeps Shallan’s drawing, even treasures it. And I think that she obviously….Feels her lack of feeling (if that makes sense)
See: the hospital scene with Shallan where she attempts to apologise. She’s…Uncomfortable with the emotional aspect of things, and she’s completely wrong about Shallan’s intentions, and actually her actions as well. There’s a block there with the empathy…But that’s obviously something that doesn’t exactly…Sit right with her? She’s quite self-depreciating in that scene, actually, and it’s clear (to me, anyway) that there’s the sense of her being aware that there’s something…Missing. Something that…Doesn’t quite line up. Something that makes her different and stops her relating to people perhaps in the way that she wants to.
Anyway: don’t equate lack of empathy with lack of love: a novel by Brandon Sanderson. God bless. Intentional or not, this is one of the most relatable low!empathy characters I’ve ever read and I’m here for it.
Again, a few things here: this concept of autistic children being far more mature/behaving like ‘little adults’ is actually pretty common. Also the puzzle-solving thing is just. Relatable.
Next part of the post brings us to our current book Oathbringer. Also I hope this post is as useful for the discussion as I hope it will be. Because the breaking it up, and moving it over takes work, but if it helps us understand Jasnah’s mindset I feel it is worth it.
Oathbringer
Jasnah is believed dead for months on end, reunites with Shallan after who knows how long: immediately starts infodumping to her. Shallan:…….’Figured.’
Jasnah back at it with the only bothering with emotions when they’re genuine. (Also Dalinar getting all indignant about people not understanding Jasnah/mischaracterising her is my favourite)
Obviously she’s talking about her heresy here, but with a tiny smidge of tweaking it works well for her being autistic, too. She will always be a little bit different, always not fit, always be defined by being an outsider.
Again on the feelings tempered by logic, thing. (Also Kaladin/Jasnah is interesting because they’re basically….polar opposites, and I enjoy the dynamic. But that’s for another day.)
Jasnah: approves of frank, honest comments. Even if they’re mildly insulting. As long as they’re genuine.
Jasnah just not caring about social/cultural gender norms. Jasnah does what Jasnah wants. But also, gender roles, and tbh the entire concept of gender, is a social construct, it’s something a lot of autistic folks struggle with. (Also non-binary/agender!Jasnah just, as a fun little aside)
A)- Jasnah probably didn’t notice and B)- low!empathy Jasnah again.
‘I have scientific evidence of the fact I’m not good at mentoring/teaching/with people in general’ actual quote from Jasnah herself. Also, just, the language here? The mentoring/taking of wards is an intimate social relationship in Vorin culture, but the way Jasnah speaks of it she uses words like ‘scientific evidence’ and ‘experiment’ which says a lot about how she views relationships in general tbh.
Also, I think her self-consciousness is something that’s interesting to note. This isn’t the first time she questions her teaching abilities/methods, in fact it’s one of her biggest and most obvious insecurities, it’s something that she’s very aware of. She knows she’s bad at this, and it bothers her.
And again with Jasnah being factual-based when it comes to her decisions ,and emotions based when it comes to her motivations. Jasnah Kholin feels things so deeply I will physically fight you over this matter. Also, given what we’ve seen, it definitely seems as though Ivory/Inkspren/Jasnah’s ideals are concerned with logic/reason/rightness, and that being a defining aspect of her/her order is interesting in the context of her being autistic.
…
SMALL POST THIS TIME BUT BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT A QUOTE TAKEN FROM THIS SPECIFIC CHAPTER I WANTED TO ISOLATE IT
Since, as far as we know, Jasnah isn’t deaf/hoh, the lip reading is something she acquired for other purposes. Probably as part of her paranoia/wish to protect her family, but it’d also probably help with auditory processing disorder. Which is basically where your ears hear words fine, but your brain scrambles them up and fails to make sense of them. Also a lot of autistic folks (self included) tend to watch people’s mouths instead of their eyes (bc eye contact Sucks) and I’m not saying I can lip-read, but if I could it’d definitely make life easier.
…
FINAL PART
Jasnah being completely and utterly oblivious to the hidden agenda/undercurrent to Navani’s thoughts which is ‘Renarin is comfortable with the men/is enjoying himself with them, maybe we should encourage that?’ and just responds to her mother’s words and nothing else. The boulder analogy makes me laugh (but also recalls what Ivory said about her being ‘stone’ which is, again, a kind of othering, a setting apart of the ‘normal’ humans, based on how she emotes/deals with things/processes fact.
A lot of autistic folk find it difficult to teach people, largely because, if they explain something in a certain way, away in which they understand, they have trouble rephrasing it/altering it to make other people understand it as well. Can definitely, definitely see Jasnah struggling with this.
This shocks me to my very core so it does.
Oh look, it’s touch!averse Jasnah. (she’s really not very touchy feely at all) Also Jasnah not knowing how to deal with her emotions/grief and withdrawing from people around her. Also I’m calling the arms wrapped around herself as a pressure stim. Fight me.
Jasnah having anxious!stims (that she probably forced herself to unlearn)
Jasnah ‘fuck your social niceties, I have a war to win’ Kholin.
Mm, who else was ‘solemn’ as a child? Maybe ‘correcting logical fallacies at age six’ ‘no longer needed a mother when she reached adolescence’ Jasnah. And, like, ‘people mock Renarin for his autistic traits…Jasnah is also mocked for having these exact same traits.’ It’s basically canon, people.
Also, the fact that Renarin instinctively went to Jasnah for comfort, not Navani, who eagerly mothers literally everyone around her, or anyone else, he went to Jasnah ‘empathy of a corpse, made of literal stone’ Kholin for comfort and support tells me something. It tells me that these two had an understanding. That Jasnah understood Renarin, and that Renarin understood Jasnah, and that there perhaps a reason for that that has to do with their shared brain weirdness.
This is also the first time, as I recall, that Jasnah responds with physical affection. (And this doesn’t undermine what I said about her being touch!averse, she is, but a)- she initiates this contact and b)- it’s with someone she’s clearly comfortable with this level of contact)
I have said it before and I will say it again, Jasnah infodumping to an exhausted Shallan in the middle of a fucking battlefield is the most autistic thing I have ever witnessed in my entire life.
And, to summarise it all neatly, Jasnah Kholin, empathy of a corpse, heart of a boulder, whose love in the end never failed her. *wipes tear* my beautiful autistic queen is good and full of love and feeling but just being really bad at showing it to people. We do not deserve her.
TL;DR: Jasnah is autistic af. It’s basically canon. Fight me.
Weew. That was a LOT. But I hope it was worth it.
I am now going to add my own two cents in and say that speaking of Jasnah and Renarin BOTH being on the autistic spectrum, it’s not uncommon for people who are both on the spectrum to have an easier time getting each other. That’s more then Jasnah and Renarin sharing a commonality as mentioned in the post, bit might help explain why they GOT each other so well
BenW @@@@@ 72 – Perhaps you are reading too much from Jasnah’s lip reading. I see it as just another skill for someone who runs a spy network, which BTW seem to be the norm for women of high rank among the Alethi. Then again, I read a lot of spy novels and love police procedural, so I see it from that point of view.
@74 I basically coppied and pasted a HUGE Tumblr post, on why Jasnah was autistic. Written by “someone else” piece by piece because it was to big to fit all at once, but was too good a post too not share with the community. I added my own two cents in the BOTTOM of the last post.
I isolated that particular part, not because I thought it was particularly important, but because it was a bit that referenced THIS CHAPTER. And as such I thought it might be worth extra attention for that reason ONLY.
I am sorry if I wasn’t clear about that
EDIT: The whole thing takes posts 65-66, & 68-73. I had to break it into small chunks to make sure it fits. And it’s possible, that even not counting the chapter highlight, I made some chunks smaller than I had to
@63
In defense of Jasnah. She tries to be polite, tries to disengage, she does everything in her power to avoid embarrassing him while saying she wants nothing to do with him. Amaram escalates the confrontation at every step. He may have had something to say that was important but if that’s so then there are other channels, other ways to parlay the message than trying to force a conversation to a woman who despises him. If it’s so important then why speak to Jasnah? She’s not the queen and doesn’t have much in the way of political power. Influence sure, but her atheism blunts most of that. His only motivation would have to be to pursue a marriage alliance. Judging from her reaction it’s clear that she would not agree to that in no uncertain terms. This confrontation to me has the feel of a long standing argument that we’re only catching the end of. That makes it even more egregious. I mean damn. Jasnah gotta pull a Shardblade on the bum to get him to leave her be.
On the idea of Amaram accidentally being the one to cause the refounding of BOTH the Windrunners AND the Elsecallers, I like it. Not JUST because they were the two orders that were thought would never reform. But because in many ways I think that Kaladin and Jasnah are two of the most emotionally driven people in the series. They just deal with those emotions in radically different ways
Isilel@63 – “But regardless of what she thought about Amaram, it was uncharacteristically stupid to insult him in public and to refuse to give him a brief hearing.”
Why is this uncharacteristically stupid? Why must she capitulate to Amaram’s request when it was submitted in this fashion? Amaram has apparently made advances towards Jasnah before, and she has made it clear that she is not interested, so why shouldn’t she initially assume that this meeting isn’t another attempt for him to harass her (which, hey, it turned out to be)? Amaram is also the new Sadeas, the head of a family that literally tried to assassinate her beloved uncle, and that was after betraying him on the battlefield and causing the death of thousands of his soldiers, some of whom she likely knew; so Jasnah has plenty of reasons to not want to talk to him causally.
Don’t forget, Amaram didn’t request an audience at Jasnah’s convenience to meet and discuss; he tried to force a discussion at his convenience in a public location where he may have thought Jasnah would have to capitulate for concern of making a scene (and she called his bluff by making that scene). This made it clear he likely wasn’t acting in good faith from the start, but was trying to manipulate the situation to his advantage.
Add to that the fact that Amaram didn’t approach someone in the Kholin household who was in a position to actually heal this rift like Elhokar, Dalinar, or even Adolin or Navani, he approaches the member that he has pursued romantically (or at least, for marriage) and has been rejected by likely multiple times. All under the auspices that Dalinar will listen to Jasnah (again, he could have approached Navani or even Adolin for a similar chance).
Finally, consider the fact that after Jasnah tells Amaram that she doesn’t and wouldn’t steer Dalinar’s mind in this matter, she tells Amaram to leave 3 times (and he still doesn’t). This is when Amaram finally drops any pretense about his motivation actually being about healing the rift between Sadeas and Kholin, and instead grabs Jasnah’s arm and demands that Jasnah explain why she always denies him his personal desires.
So to be clear: this wasn’t a good faith approach for mediation. This was likely an attempt of manipulation and coercion (likely at Jasnah’s expense, since a logical suggestion to mend the rift between the two households would be a time-tested method like marriage). This was Amaram trying to get what he wanted; and to attempt to do so by manipulating the object of his desire, by the belief that she would not deny him an audience if he applied pressure in a public setting. And when he didn’t get his way, he switched to physical attacks, verbal insults, and then ultimately threatened the woman who continuously rejected him with his stolen Shardblade.
As far as eliminating Amaram after insulting him, Jasnah may have felt that the Sadeas army was properly neutralized for the time being by putting them to work in fixing Thaylenah. No one would anticipate that Amaram and his army would betray the human race and side with the Voidbringers. What are you suggesting that Dalinar/Jasnah have done in order for the Sadeas army to “be dealt with one way or another,” kill Amaram and his entire army in cold blood? How else could they have been brought into the fold? House Sadeas was given a task at Thaylen City to prove themselves, and they ultimately failed at that task spectacularly.
As for Jasnah’s judgement of three particular peoples’ character: her information about Sebarial was incorrect but was also outdated and based on observations from a distance; she properly identified Aesudan as a potential threat, she just didn’t pull the trigger at that time; and as for Taravangian, his personality and capacity was impacted by direct Shardic influence, so I’d be willing to give her a pass there. I do agree that she’s not a perfect judge of character, but she’s pretty good overall.
I also agree that the Jasnah/Amaram confrontation could somewhat read as a bit of fan-service to Kaladin fans (and Jasnah, Shallan and Dalinar fans, for that matter). However, I do believe that Jasnah would have done something along similar lines to the Sadeas couple if they tried to manipulate and harass her at an inopportune time, as well (probably without disparaging their mothers, however). Jasnah is fairly blunt and doesn’t have the patience to suffer fools for long, after all.
ETA: Well (and succinctly) said, EvilMonkey@76
Let’s not forget what happened the LAST TIME we saw Amaram had a “Private Conversation” with someone aka Kaladin. When it didn’t go how Amaram wanted it to go he branded Kaladin a deserter, killed anyone who could stand against him as a witness and turned him into a slave. Maybe I am reading to much into things, but I get the feeling that what Brandon is hinting at is that this is Amaram’s MO and that being alone with him privately is a VERY BAD IDEA.
@62 AeronaGreenjoy
Looks like you will get your wish. In WoB, Brandon mentioned in book 4, Dalinar will be taking a step back from the main action, but in book 5 there will be a whole lot more of him, which is why it can be easy to see how book 3 or 5 could have ended up as Dalinar’s book. I think what will happen is Dalinar, and central government company (Jasnah, Renarin, Adolin, Navani, and etc) will have some less scenes, as the narrative moves more towards the field and the human/parshendi interactions. Venli will be focused to give us a view of the parshendi dealing with the war, while Shallan will pursue the covert operations and teach us more about the Ghostbloods, and Kaladin will be scouting, and front line fighting, forcing him to confront his 4th oath. So I think we will not see as much of Urithiru till mid/end of the book when I think they will revive the Sibling. At least that’s my thoughts on the matter.
@63 Isilel
I am sorry, but I very much disagree with quite a few of the points you have made. Now I realize I am biased, because I love the character that is Jasnah. Anyone that is passionate about a character is biased, because their like of said character immediately means they are going to look at anything that that character does in a positive light. However, there are numerous examples of all the points I am about to make through out the books. So here we go
First, Jasnah and Amaram. Jasnah has continually commented on Amaram’s personality, and capability. She has commented numerous times about how most do not see the real Amaram. Her father had plans for the two since they were very young, so they were shoved together on numerous occasions, at an age when they were just beginning to find themselves. All of this speaks to me of a person who got to see Amaram literally turn into the man he is today. How Amaram is, was not a revelation to Jasnah. She saw that stuff happen at the ground floor as it were. So I think if there is anyone who would be an authority on what a cremhole Amaram is, it would be Jasnah.
Second, we do not know how many battles Amaram served with Dalinar during the battle to unite the highprinces. Sadeas was with Gavilar and Dalinar since the beginning. Amaram was under Sadeas. So it is reasonable to think there was regular interactions between them. Then there is Gavilar wanting Jasnah and Amaram to get together, and including Amaram on important meetings. So again, Amaram and Dalinar would have been around each other quite a bit. Just because we do not see it extensively on screen, does not mean it did not exist.
Third, As pointed out in a prior thread, every single one of those instances, includes fooling everyone else too. Sebarial had the whole warcamp fooled. One would think if he could prevent what he was doing with his own city sized camp, from being observed by the very camps adjacent to his own, then I would imagine, Sebarial can keep some secrets from spies sent by Jasnah, when she is traveling in a whole other country. I think this speaks greatly of Sebarials skill, rather than to Jasnah’s detriment. Aesudan did not fool Jasnah. Jasnah knew enough to have an assassin ready in the wings, and ordered the assassin to keep an eye on Aesudan. The only failing I could see there, is Jasnah might have stayed her hand out of care for Ellhokar. But Jasnah definitely saw the writing on the wall regarding Aesudan before anyone else. Taravangian yet again has the entire world fooled including the nobility of his own city. One would think that would be a sign that he has a decent amount of things in place to prevent discovery. On top of that, there is a good chance depending on the day he doesn’t have to fake, because he would actually be dull minded at that time. So again I think this speaks more to the skills Taravangian holds, than being critical of Jasnah and to her detriment. A person can be a math prodigy, but if you give them a math problem regarding formula they were never taught, with the entire problem stacked against them, and they cannot figure it out, you are not commenting on their intelligence. You are commenting on how much you can rig the game.
Fourth, It was categorically idiotic of Amaram to confront Jasnah in a confrontational manner, in front of her colleagues, vocally enough for all to hear, and then precede to insult her. Amaram lacked decorum, and professionalism. He failed as a person, as a general, and as a ruler of his house with that interaction. If he expected any form of cooperation, and unity, then throwing a tantrum in front of a scholarly audience, was the worst way to conduct himself. Again I think this speaks more about Amaram, than it does about Jasnah. As to eliminating Amaram, Jasnah is working with people. She will take action to protect the ones she loves, but right after the interaction with Amaram, she muses she will need to discuss it with Dalinar. She is not making decisions for him, not taking away his power, she is working with him. Dalinar decided that putting Amaram in a place to keep him busy, keep him productive, and help build good will with Thayla while keeping the Sadeas men occupied would be the best thing to do. And honestly, that all makes perfect sense. Just Amaram decides to have another tantrum which as far as we know, could have he had already switched sides, so he was trying to undermine them by getting them to trust him with too much. Which would have been catastrophic considering how he betrayed them.
Fifth, Amaram felt betrayed by the Heralds, and Sons of Honor because he found out the religion he believed in and used as an excuse for all the horrible things he has done, turned out to be a lie. Why would he then be so benevolent and share any information from those who failed him? Nope, instead he went running to the other side.
Sixth, they were dealing with house Sadeas. Dalinar said it himself. He thought by House Sadeas helping Thayla rebuild would give them good work to occupy their time, and build good will with Thayla. That by helping people, House Sadeas would become better. I guess its Dalinar’s fault for hoping to inspire goodness in House Sadeas?
Now as to your comments on Navani, Renarin, and Adolin, I agree. You can see the fondness and love between the three. Even Renarin makes a point to refer to Navani by a personal Alethi term that denotes Navani as a favorite and beloved aunt, and we certainly see how Navani dotes on Adolin.
That is a good point about the squires, I was assuming radiants, but squires as you point out do not need spren save the original radiant’s spren. That is an excellent point regarding soulcasting! They most definitely need a way to increase their supply if they are going to remain in Urithiru.
True, we cannot say for sure at the moment how relevant the information she has is or is not, but I think considering the reception Kaladin and Co. got in Shadesmar, I am not sure how beneficial telling Dalinar that the spren currently hate the humans would be. We also do not know whether or not Jasnah had in fact shared most of the information she had, but it had no immediately application at the time. Guess RAFO lol.
@65 BenW
Very interesting points. I also read your post on the 17th shard and I can see both sides. I can see how Jasnah could be autistic, but I can also see how she could be a gifted person. Both seem possible. I am more than excited to find out more about her. Back five can’t come soon enough!
@76 EvilMonkey
As always, loving your posts. Agree on all points!
@77 BenW
I agree whole heartily. Would be a very poignant revelation :)
Amaram’s interactions with Jasnah just give off the creepy ex-boyfriend / stalkery rejected suitor vibe we’ve seen in countless tv shows and movies. “Why do YOU have to reject ME?” Like it’s Jasnah’s fault / flaw for not reciprocating his desire. He almost has an incel mindset and it just adds to his overall distastefulness.
Kaladin’s showdown with Amaram at the end just brings into the open the ugliness that was always within him.
@81 Gaz
Wish I could give your comment a thumbs up like on facebook. I whole heartily agree. Amaram came to the situation as a privileged male expecting to be listened to and obeyed. Jasnah’s refusal and ultimately defiance I think really set him off. Conversely when he was dealing with the maid (an “inferior”) back at his home when Shallan infiltrated, who was acting like a “flighty” woman, where he could scold her like a “authoritative male figure”, had him act supremely confident and “caring”. Very incel-like behaviors.
@BenW,
I hope you’ll take the following as sincere disagreement, not an attempt to give offense.
On Jasnah as autistic: everyone, literally everyone who is functional enough to have behavior, has behavior in common with autistic people. The autism “spectrum” is called that for a reason, it’s because people diagnosable with autism are at the far end of a range of several types of human capabilities and behaviors.There is no bright line between “autistic” and “not autistic” any more than there is a sharp division between “tall” and “average height”.
Jasnah looks to me to be partly modeled on Richard Feynman, a genius who claimed to have had to intellectually learn how to understand others’ emotions because he didn’t get it instinctively. (I think he was less than totally honest in so saying, personally.)
Being rational, or a rationalist is not diagnostic of autism!
As for Shallan not reading Jasnah well … Shallan is eerily correct in understanding, say, Sebarial. She totally gets many others wrong, though. She isn’t stupid or lacking perception, understanding strangers on short acquaintance is hard (even for the neurotypical). Also see below about Taravangian–Jasnah is just unusual, a personality type Shallan has never encountered.
“I believe that my own morality—which answers only to my heart—is more sure and true than the morality of those who do right only because they fear retribution.” That isn’t autism, it’s a common argument we atheists have with religious people (who aren’t as smart as Brandon). Again, not all rationalists are autistic. Brandon went to a lot of trouble to have a plausible atheist in the story. (It almost worked–Jasnah is not actually an atheist.)
“Jasnah has a habit of doing this, this very cold, calculated, logical and pragmatic way of seeing the world as well as morality.” That isn’t necessarily autism, either. At least one psychologist calls it “Mild psychopathic tendencies.” (Certainly autistic people who are not psychopaths may also be described in this manner.)
“Definitely, definitely, definitely an autistic thing. Issues with people entering Your Spaces or touching Your Things is a big autistic thing.” However, in Jasnah’s case it could also be the incredibly important secrets she has, yes? As a spymaster, as a conspirator in at least three conspiracies, as a returned Radiant?
I don’t want to do a long (longer!) point-by-point rebuttal, but when Jasnah comments on how power is often illusory she’s clearly foreshadowing that Shallan’s power is illusion, which she presumably has already figured out. One thing nobody will argue is that Jasnah is scary-smart.
“… I’m like 89% certain that ‘taking notes on the basic personalities/literally studying the people around you and making notes on the way they behave so you can actually understand them’ is not a typical allistic thing to do.” It is very typical of a spymaster. Same with the lipreading.
As for understanding Taravangian, agreeing with @Scath–T. is just weird. Nobody would predict his bizarre intellect/empathy sine wave of a life because it’s unprecedented and unique.
To repeat a previous point: everyone “acts like an autistic person” to some extent, at some times, because “autistic behavior” is part of the human condition, part of human nature. Everyone, even the most extroverted and empathetic person, feels awkward and misunderstands social situations at some times. Is Jasnah more “autistic-like” than, say, Navani? Yes, or so I perceive. Is she someone a modern neurologist would diagnose? That’s far more arguable.
Again, I hope you don’t find this offensive, but, well, in your own messages you implied preferring blunt, honest disagreement to prevarication, right?
@83: Interesting
Not an argument most readers would make nor agree with, but also not argument I will attempt at making. I will however say, as an atheist myself, I never related to this aspect of Jasnah’s character.
@Gepeto: Jasnah is not an atheist. She acknowledges the existence and importance of gods. She’d be an idiot not to, since in her world they’re both manifest and obvious.
She’s an apatheist (like Siddhartha Gautama apparently was), or a misotheist, but not an atheist.
@85: I think Brandon and the fandom describe her as an atheist… I believe Brandon once commented on having joined on-line forums discussing atheism in an attempt to portray it adequately.
@85 Carl
The great thing about Brandon’s books is many people can get many things from his characters. I understand and respect your view on jasnahs beleifs. For myself I do feel she is an athiest. As I myself am athiest/agnostic, I view the shards much like Greek/Roman/Gaelic gods. They are beings just as falliable as us but with more power. For instance,
Spoilers for warbreaker (I’m on my phone so whiting out and formatting is difficult)
Update–roll over to read:
The returned were viewed as gods yet we know they aren’t. They are cognitive shadows with an infusion of investiture. Anyone with the proper know-how can become one. Heralds are another example. We know it’s possible for Joe from the corner street with the right cinnectioc to pick up a shard and vecome a “God”. So I ask you in that light what does it mean to be a diety? What does it mean to be god? If the only thing that separates me from a shard is the level of investiture then as far as I am concerned then they are no god to me. So I feel jasnah can speak to cultivation as one powerful woman to another, with no worship required. I think jasnah can be cosmere aware and still remain very much in my opinion, an athiest
@Gepeto, Brandon did indeed write about talking to atheists to get Jasnah right. Then he did not write an atheist, just someone (as I said above) who is reminiscent of real atheists.
@Scáth: first of all your spoiler block did not work, you might want to edit your post. I’m not spoiled, I read Warbreaker second of the Cosmere stories, just for the sake of others. There are no spoilers outside of the Stormlight Archive in my message.
(Note to Tor: you might want to add a “spoiler” feature to your commenting software, like what’s in PHPBBS, or on TV Tropes for that matter. I prefer the PHPBBS implementation, personally.)
I disagree with your point and so does the LDS Church. There is no requirement for gods to be omnipotent outside of certain (currently dominant in Western civ) religions like the mainstream Abrahamic faiths and Zoroastrianism. LDS (not a mainstream Christian religion) theology refers to “apotheosis”, becoming a god, as something mortals do, and consider the God (El, Elohim, Adonai) of the Bible to mostly refer to someone other than the omnipotent creator of the universe, and believed to be a former mortal who has achieved apotheosis.
In this very novel, when Dalinar asks Odium if he is God and Odium answers, “Yes,” he is not lying, in other words. Just not using your (or modern Jewish or Muslim theologians’) definition.
Like I said in other threads, the Cosmere is very much written by a Mormon (just as Orson Scott Card’s Enderverse books are, but in a very different manner).
@88: Jasnah is presented within this series as an atheism (though I do not recognize myself in her) and probably works as one for a majority of readers: too many have commented positively on it for her character to not portray it within ways others find relatable. This isn’t however true for me, as a reader and an individual. I can’t however pretend what I consider as atheism fits within the proper definition of the term (hence it may be Jasnah truly is one and it is just my own perception which is jinxed), I can only speak for myself and I’ll leave the semantic to others.
I have been debating as to whether or not I should expand on this… I am not particularly religion-verse. In fact, my knowledge of religion is limited to the great lines, not the details. I know about the Bible, but I really can’t talk about it as others would, having dissected its every pages. I only recall a few passages, some Jesus stories I liked and that’s about it.
Why? Because I really, honestly, genuinely do not care about it. It is not an important aspect of my life nor anyone close to me’s life. I understand it is important to most people though one of my earliest shock, as a young adult, was to find out there actually were people my age who cared about religion (at the time, I thought it was a thing of the elderly, something from another century, not beliefs young people still behold). To give anyone an idea, I was 23 years old when I met the first people my age who actually went to Church…
It is very hard to put it within words others will not find offending, so I will leave it as is. I do not care for religion. Jasnah’s character however very much cares about it, she dedicated part of her research to find out the truth (or the absence of truth) with respect to Vorinism, she felt it was important she told the world she was an atheism, her adherence or lack of adherence to her world’s main religious current is mightily important to her character whereas my version of atheism is the complete absence of care towards it.
In other words, Jasnah, despite being what the author refers too as an atheism, is, together with Dalinar, one of the most religiously involved character on the cast.
I can’t make links in between Mormon or any major religion and SA. I can’t because I have no idea what those links may be. I can only say, as an atheism, a character which would be more in-line with myself would be a character who is not religion driven, who does not care about it as, still for me, it transcends the whole “believing in God or not”, it’s…. I don’t have words for it. It is just “not there”?
I noticed how many of the in-world discussions, with respect to religion, passes through Jasnah’s character whereas an atheism, still as I perceive myself, wouldn’t engage within those discussion, wouldn’t want to engage within those discussion and likely wouldn’t care to engage within those discussions. Jasnah however cares very much for it, no matter what her conclusions may be. So I don’t relate.
This is all very personal. I am convinced many will jump in to say how they love religion-themed discussions despite defining themselves as atheism and this is fine by me, it is just not something I personally relate to. Whatever this makes of it, when it comes to proper semantic, I have no idea, but it isn’t what is being depicted with Jasnah’s character.
@88 Carl
I knew I couldn’t white it out so have a warning of spoilers below so people could avoid it since making spoiler tags on my phone is problematic.
I don’t see the problem with either of our interpretations of jasnah. We just define god differently. In a universe where magic does literally exist, then if the cut off for being a “god” is gaving supernatural powers, then that includes almost everyone. Even people who would be viewed as natural by one group would be defined as goods by people from another world. Sandmasters for instance. Khrissalia viewed them as magic, why Kenton felt it was not. Khrissalia didn’t understand the function at the time. So by your definition is Kenton a god? If once khrysalia understands the function, and maybe figured out a way to use it herself, does she then become termed a god? The vorin religion treats the almighty as all knowing and all powerful. If that is how the vorin religion defines God, and jasnah discovers the almighty as a shard vessel was not all powerful (killed by odium) and not all knowing (not as good at future sight), does the almighty then scease to be a god and jasnah can then be termed an athiest? Much like how believing in a religion is an extremely personal choice that is unique to every individual, so too to me is being an athiest. So I respect your belief that jasnah is not an athiest while still holding my own belief that she very much still is and will continue to be so.
OK, wow! My views on Amaram and his goals when he tried to approach Jasnah are very different. And Jasnah is my favorite character (along with Dalinar), however she is not all-round perfect, as we have discussed a few chapter re-caps back and IMHO she is not great as an intelligencer for her family because she doesn’t have a natural instinct for interaction with people and is thus prone to missing sublimal emotional clues. I also felt from the beginning that her confrontation with Amaram was out of character and contrived.
I don’t have much time, so I am not going to adress various posters’ arguments individually, but I’ll try to explain my position as to why I think that Amaram was a more nuanced character than the shallow evil PoS many would like him to be.
Now, let me step back a bit – I see Gavilar more positively than the majority as well. For one thing, I maintain that in most cases unification of a pre-modern country with more or less the same culture and language is a good thing and necessary for subsequent peaceful progress. Constant wars and ruinious border taxes just keepthe trade down, the commoners poor and fighting for subsistence and preclude economic and scientific development. And people being people, it usually only can be accomplished via conquest. When Dalinar said that they were wrong to unify Alethkar in that way, he was being unrealistic. Gavilar also, unlike many unifiers, had the wisdom to stop and consolidate, rather than pushing his luck and chasing the glory of conquest until he was stopped.
Now, he failed to achieve a solid consolidation, and it may be because he wasn’t good enough at politics – treating it as a competition was likely not helpful. Or it may be that too much was against him to be able to do it in just one generation. And I also think that Nergaoul being parked in and around Alethkar and subsequent unrest, border wars, et al. were not a coincidence. Odium was determined to keep Alethi from properly united and simultaneously to groom Dalinar – i.e. to give him a constant access to warfare.
Anyway, even we first learned about Gavilar wanting to start a Desolation in WoR, I was fairly confident that he had also been a recepient of Honor’s visions and wanted to release Ba-Ado-Mishram and start a False Desolation so as to unite and prepare the world for the ominous Final Desolation of the visions. Which was not a bad plan, IMHO. I also believe that he used the Sons of Honor for that end, rather than being personally invested in enhancing the power of Vorin religion. Everything that we have learned in OB only confirmed this, and in addition we now know that Gavilar shared his knowledge of the visions with other people – Taravangian and Amaram among them.
Now, of course Amaram was introduced to us as a villain and you don’t get a second chance to make a first impression, but I’ll point out that there are plenty of people in SA who would have done the same without the hard struggle with their conscience and having to be talked into it. Sadeas and Roshone among them. Not only was the temptation very great for purely selfish reasons, but knowing what he knew it was particularly difficult to allow some random soldier – not even Kaladin, the one who earned them, the great fighter and with great reputation for his honor, to get the shards. That’s why I kinda hoped that Amaram would have been the one to pay attention to Moash’s disappearance and ask pointed questions – because there, Kaladin got his wish… in it resulted in disaster. Ahem.
Also, it is instructive to see to what lengths Taravangian, by all accounts a truly good man before he heard Gavilar’s revelations, has gone after hearing them – and Gavilar’s death. Amaram’s crimes are nothing by comnparison.
Which is why I always thought that it was Amaram’s breaking of his promise re: Tien that painted him in truly villanious light, because it would have cost him nothing to keep his word there and he just seemingly didn’t care. But now we know that Tien was specifically targeted for elimination by the Skybreakers, so the whole fiasco with young boys being put into the ranks may have been part of their assassination plan instead.
Also, I found it interesting that Amaram apparently didn’t name Kaladin a traitor as he said he would – Kal’s parents were informed that he just fell in battle.
Finally, it was noteworthy that Amaram’s household liked and respected him, rather than being afraid of him, and young women were safe in his service – very much unlike it was with Sadeas, I imagine. And we got a glimpse of Amaram the scholar which was also fairly impressive, given his social limitations.
We also don’t yet know what Gavilar saw in him or why he wanted so badly to couple him with Jasnah, but we do know that even with the king’s blessing, Amaram wasn’t pursuing Jasnah with unwanted courtship at the time of the fateful feast! There was an understanding between them that this wasn’t going to happen.
Which is why I don’t see at as likely that Amaram came to Jasnah in Urithiru with an offer of marriage. To me, it makes no sense. If he wouldn’t importune her when he was in her father’s favor and her father wanted this union, why would he do so know when he is in the doghouse where the Kholins are concerned? Nor could he have approached Adolin, who in an earlier chapter demonstrated a complete unwillingness for any reconciliation or even merest civility. I guess, he could have tried Navani or Renarin, but why not Jasnah, whom he saw as more influential or maybe more utilitaristic and logical, therefore more willing to overlook past indiscretions in the name of future cooperation?
As to what he wanted to talk about – he was privy to any number of secrets, from Sons of Honor, Gavilar’s doings and interpretations of the visions which probably differed from Dalinar’s, to the information about Taln and his own growing realisation of the betrayal of the Heralds. Which made it so frustrating for me as a reader when Jasnah just shut him down instead of finding out what he had to say, as a good intelligencer should.
Nor was she in any danger talking with him privately, as long as she had stormlight – and Kaladin’s meeting with Amaram was _not_ at all private, as both his men and Amaram’s officers – presumably fellow members of SoH, were there.
Nor am I at all sure that Amaram’s desire to bridge the differences with Kholins wasn’t genuine – at that point. And they needed to do _something_ about Sadeas contingent – leaving them to their devices whilst seething was begging for trouble, as a scholar of history should have known.
@91: I really love your posts on Amaram/Jasnah and I wish I had the ability to write equivalently good ones. I personally share your views as I was convinced, a long time ago, there perhaps was more to Amaram’s character than meets the eye. I could never see him as a full-blown villain, he certainly was a better man than young Dalinar which certainly puts a few things within perspective.
I also feel it is very dangerous to insist on viewing a favorite character within a sole positive light as I often see it happening with Jasnah (and also Dalinar). I find strengths as well as weaknesses need to be assessed with all characters, even the ones we personally prefer and Jasnah here is certainly not making a great display of herself. It does not matter why Amaram sought her and not someone else, it is highly plausible he believed their past history would make her more inclined to hear him out (he was wrong, it made things worst), what matters is Jasnah handled the matter poorly and made things worst.
I do not believe the Sadeas princedom was doomed to fall. I do not believe Amaram was doomed to fall, but I do believe their fall was precipitated by the Kholins intransigent behavior and Jasnah here played a role. Amaram was an asset. His skills as a military leader have been referenced too often to not be real and, as Dalinar points out early in OB, they are in dire need for those. The Kholins lost nearly every single one of their ranked officers: only General Kahl, his sons and Adolin seem to be left. Of those, only General Khal truly is a real battle-hardened military leader: Adolin didn’t occupy the function for long nor did he lead many battles. He also doesn’t view himself as a leader nor does he have the confidence he can be one and his relationship with killing people have became more complex by the end of OB. So perhaps not the best choice either. Amaram however is a trialed battle-field officer who has the ability to lead large scaled battles, a skill no currently known Radiants possess, a skill very few known characters possess.
I thus do not think they could afford losing the Sadeas princedom nor Amaram, but they sure did everything they could to make sure it would happen. Dalinar, Jasnah, they never realized how a few nice words can go a long way. Had Dalinar pat Amaram’s back once, things might have gone down differently, but handling other people’s emotional response never was something he was good at, neither is Jasnah.
Unfortunately, the narrative was determined to depict Amaram as an unredeemable villain devoid of qualities. A shame as the character had the potential for more depth and there are those to agree with it.
I love your analysis of Gavilar. I started up really disliking him, but more and more I find he might have actually been half the man Dalinar makes him out to be. He did relent on the killing and the butchering once he could and perhaps you are right, perhaps Alethkar would have never united without warfare even if I dislike the idea.
I also do not think Jasnah was a great intelligence leader for her house. She clearly had other priorities, her information was off in many cases and there are a few key scenes where she completely missed how others are reacting to her, most notably with Shallan. She lacks emotional intelligence which is often key when it comes to spying and gathering information: the knowledge someone his hiding something obtained by non-verbal clues and not through rationalization it probably is the case. Shallan does relatively well despite her lack of training and experience because her instincts are often right: she can read other people’s body language, decode it and make realistic conclusions.
On average, I would argue all the Kholins are low on the emotional intelligence scale except for Adolin who inherited it from Evi, a foreigner and even him struggles at occasions. Dalinar, Jasnah, Navani all do poorly with emotions. I think it is reasonable to assume Elhokar was much better, but we didn’t get to see him in action. Renarin has a disability which plays within those exact skills.
I for one never said that Jasnah was perfect. In fact I’m one of the posters that said our views on Jasnah come mostly from a hero-worshipping Shallan and thus must be taken with a grain of salt. And maybe Gepeto and Isilel are right when they say she might not be a great spymaster. I don’t necessarily agree but the argument can be made; the evidence of her failure in that regard aedocumented in the narrative.
With that being said I still see no fault in Jasnah at the Amaram confrontation or her actions afterward. Scath @80 puts the onus on Amaram and that’s where I feel it should be. He knows that there’s a sore spot between them and could have handled the situation better instead of trying to force a conversation. Navani is the diplomat, if he had important info she would have been his best conduit. Gaz points out that he gives off a jilted ex-boyfriend incel stalker vibe here and I agree. If Jasnah knowa her conversations with him will be unproductive at best it makes sense for her to disengage before things escalate. She tries and he doesn’t let her. At what point do we stop blaming Jasnah for not being 100 percent perfect, for not attempting to treat with someone who acts in a boorish manner? Doesn’t Amaram have a responsibility to convey his message to more receptive ears if he knows he and Jasnah have clashed in the past? As far as the aftermath, they gave him a chance to earn trust instead of discarding him and his princedom out of hand. Dalinar gives him the Shardblade back with no conditions attached. A person of Amaram’s supposed intelligence could see an opportunity for advancement and mitigation of his crimes in return for good service. But he’s so stuck on being the guy with the bulletproof reputation, never at fault for Any of his actions or mistakes, always doing evil for the greater good that he missed a perfectly good opportunity to make the Kholins give him a seat at the big boy table. Torol wouldn’t have made that mistake were he in the same situation. He’d have saved Thaylen City and parlayed that act into greater influence. Just like he did with the Highprince of Information bit where he cleared Dalinar of conspiracy to assassinate Elkohar. Amaram burned his own bridges.
@83 What you say is another possible interpretation. I am not stuck in my interpreatation of the facts, and I am quite open to that possibility. In fact what you say is quite a strong possibility. I just thought it was an interesting tumblr post worth sharing.
@Scáth, I have not read any of White Sand. I’m an impatient reader, as these comment threads have demonstrated. I was planning to wait until it ends, though I’ve bought the first two parts. Now that BWS is threatening to rewrite the thing, I may just never read it, actually. (I’ll be dead before the “real” version gets published.)
As for the Amaram/Jasnah confrontation, is it worth pointing out that Jasnah herself doesn’t think she handles it well? She tries to be rational, but she’s not so self-deluding as to think she is perfectly so.
@carl. Your point that Jasnah herself thinks she could have handled it better is well noted
Of course she thinks she could have handled it better. She’s a perfectionist. The situation wasn’t ideal and she does attempt to take measures to mitigate the effects of the confrontation. It all feels like victim blaming to me though. Even when she does it to herself.
@95 Carl
I hadn’t heard about him threatening to redo White Sands. If he does, I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it would be frustrating if everything I thought I knew from reading it was negated. On the other hand, the graphic novels are by far the weakest Cosmere offering and a prose rewrite could only improve it.
Nothing to say, aisde from more Jasnah love (and she has such interesting friends – I hope we get to learn more of them), but was anybody else reminded of Donnie Darko what with the whole ominous countdown?
BenW – I read the whole tumblr post and enjoyed it. There are deifnitely individual points that I think in and of themselves are not *necessarily* autistic traits. I am not even sure that Jasnah would be diagnosed as autistic, although I think she’s closer on the spectrum than perhaps the average person. That said I feel like I would really get along with the author of the piece, and, funnily enough, Jasnah is one of the characters (in Stomrlight) I simultaneously most relate to and aspire to be like. Despite being Catholic and not an athiest in any sense of the word. I think Jasnah can be classified an athiest within her specific world – things we consider ‘supernatural’ manifestly exist. For Roshar, being an ‘athiest’ means she denies the specifics of the teachings, or that something like the Almighty has some kind of special unique moral authority. I’ll admit that my own view of God does involve a level of uniqueness/omnipotence that may not be present in the LDS faith.
So officially back from my trip to Japan with my wife, and finally all caught up with my life that I can now catch up here!
@91 Isilel
I will be going comment by comment, but I think later EvilMonkey mentions we never said Jasnah was perfect. Just because we feel Amaram has just as much responsibility, if not more so regarding how the Kholin’s are dealing with him, does not mean we are saying Jasnah is flawless. I feel I am just trying to view the scene from every angle. Now as to Jasnah’s abilities of reading people, we have disgreed on in the past, and I have put forward my reasoning for it. Every example of her “failings” regarding reading people, have come from people who have fooled everyone else as well. So if such examples are to be an indictment on her capability, then all of Alethkar and in some cases Roshar, has problems reading people (Sebarial, Taravangian, etc). So I do not think it is fair to comment that Jasnah has these problems in light of those individuals. But I respect your opinion.
In my opinion Amaram can be nuanced, and still have all the traits I have mentioned in the past. He does not have to be a tragic villain in order to have nuance. I will say regarding Gavilar, considering he headed the Sons of Honor, and attempted unification through desolation (has a nice rhyme actually lol), I would say he actually did not stop his unification through conquest. He just changed gears and thought in bigger terms.
True Sadeas and Roshone would have done what Amaram did without compunction, and Sadeas and Roshone are seen in the same way as Amaram. I see nothing wrong there. Same thing with Taravangian. Though it could be said Taravangian is taking responsibility for his actions while Amaram deflects, I do feel there is a very very narrow line separating the two, and I am interested in seeing how Taravangian may react if he sees the Diagram completely fail to the point he cannot rationalize it any further. Taravangian is another character that we see as a villian, that everything he has done he has done himself so to me is not tragic, yet has nuance. Just like Amaram.
As to the household viewing Amaram, that is because they buy the tag line and the lies hook line and sinker. The people who really know him (Sadeas, Jasnah, Kaladin, etc) all revile the person he is deep down. For me, when someone like Sadeas calls you out, that says something.
I guess we just see Jasnah and Amaram’s interactions differently. Their interaction at the feast did not speak to me of one of mutual understanding. It spoke to me of past conflict, that resulted in Jasnah avoiding Amaram like the plague, and Amaram not overtly pursuing her because he may have gotten burned. Considering how we see them interact in Oathbringer, that says to me the conflict was large, and Jasnah is ready to defend herself. So I see no understanding there.
Can I ask where you saw it mentioned to Amaram approached Jasnah with marriage in Urithiru? It was always my understanding that the marriage proposal was when they were younger, at Gavilar’s urging. I do not recall that ever coming up in “modern” day.
I think it is rather a large assumption that Amaram wanting to “work” with the Kholins, would include him revealing everything regarding the Sons of Honor. Lets say hypothetically he didn’t end up feeling betrayed by his religion. The Heralds have returned. The desolation is in full swing. He has kept all that sons of honor info to himself all this time. If everything is going according to plan, why would he share it with Kholin and crew? Now lets add him being betrayed by his religion. I theorize he has already turned to Odium at this point. So again, why would he share anything? As far as I am concerned, everything he says and does is suspect. He readily lied to Dalinar and pulled a blade on Dalinar and then Jasnah. Why should he be trusted? I see no reason he should have been afforded the benefit of the doubt.
@93 EvilMonkey
Again, agree on all points. I think actions of both Amaram and Jasnah should be taken into account. Jasnah admonishes herself on her actions and strives to do better. Amaram conversely runs to the other side and betrays the Kholins at the first chance he gets. Honestly I take the fact in the book where they say the “honorable” Amaram is a false facade, that the true Amaram is as scummy as you can get, should be taken into account.
@95 Carl
As stated earlier in this post, I do not think myself nor EvilMonkey has ever stated Jasnah is a paragon. Never said she was perfect. However I think it is important to realize all the circumstances that went into this scene.
Isilel
Also before I forget, any luck on those search terms to follow up on that timeline discrepancy?
All the discussion of Amaram, and yet this just occurred to me.
He’s desperate to be powerful and on top, to be the alpha in every situation. He betrays his religion’s very dictates (learning to read) and the best and most loyal soldier of his generation (Kaladin) along with many more of his own men to gain power.
And in his little contretemps with Jasnah he realizes that his Shardblade, position as Highprince, secret knowledge, and utter lack of integrity … still leave him so weak that Jasnah can obliterate him literally with a wave of her hand, and knows it, and would like to. It’s her integrity and moral code that keep him alive at all. And further, that he is this weak precisely because of his lack of integrity, that prevents him from becoming a Radiant because none of the truespren would ever bond to him.
Yeah, I can see him jumping at the chance Odium offers later. Possession by/of one of the Unmade is something that would make him finally Jasnah’s equal or superior. He’s certainly motivated by odium, which is hatred and resentment.
@102 Carl
I could get behind that. Hell he is part of a group trying to bring about the desolation, just so their religion can become the dominant world power like it once was and be on top. So I would say that does support your thoughts